Alatos “Ravenscar� Thuibuld

[Guest PetrusOctavianus]

Ravenscar is the leader of the Thieves Guild in Baldur's Gate, but he's a complete and utter wimp, with 3 in all stats, a Dagger +1 and Leather Armour. His only redeeming feature is 75 HP.

 

Unless I play a Thief I usually end up killing him and I feel this encounter really could benefit from a ScS makeover. After all he is lvl 15 and leader of the guild, so he should have a *few* tricks up his sleeve.

 

How about it for the next version of ScS, David?

 

Some ideas:

Give him proper stats - high Dex and decent Str and Con.

Give him and some of his more senior colleagues some Healing and Invisibility potions (or maybe he has a Ring of invisibility?) and a backstab script. When dealing with humanoids, the backstab ability is the Thief's best attack, unless he has some special items.

 

I don't know if any other mods deal with this, but when I played a Paladin and cleaned out the Thieves Guild, it felt a bit anti-climactic with the thieves being so weak, not being able to get Black Lilly's items and neither Scar not Duke Eltan acknowledging the deed.

Since you lose some XP from not completing Ravenscar's quests, it would be nice to get some from Scar or Eltan instead and +1 reputation.

 

If I knew the first thing about modding and scripting, this is a mod I'd make myself...

[Miloch]

I'm surprised Rogue Rebalancing doesn't do something with this, though I suppose it's mainly a BG2 mod.

 

I seem to recall the "Harder Creatures" component of BG1 Adventure doing something with this guy, but that hasn't been fully converted to Tutu/BGT yet.

[Guest PetrusOctavianus]

I'm surprised Rogue Rebalancing doesn't do something with this, though I suppose it's mainly a BG2 mod.

 

I seem to recall the "Harder Creatures" component of BG1 Adventure doing something with this guy, but that hasn't been fully converted to Tutu/BGT yet.

 

Thanks for the tip about BG1 Adventure. Never heard about that mod before, but I'll check it out. It seems to only improve characters by modifying stats and items, not scripts, so that is something I can easily duplicate with Shadowkeeper (the DL editor was a bit too daunting...), until the BG1 Adventure Tutu version is out.

[Miloch]

Right, it doesn't do anything sophisticated with scripts except assign some that were missing or suboptimal. "Smarter" creatures is the realm of SCS. As how your only suggestion was a backstab script, that might be a bit difficult to replicate for an enemy NPC. I have a script that does this only by using some Velveeta-style cheese. I think WizWom has a better version, possibly Yovaneth (though as a PC script), maybe aVENGER_RR. Not sure if DavidW has one but if he does, I'm sure it's better than mine. It would be really great to have a "Smarter Thieves" component to match the priests and mages. Preferably one that doesn't need to resort to 20k+ lines of script .

[Guest PetrusOctavianus]

Right, it doesn't do anything sophisticated with scripts except assign some that were missing or suboptimal. "Smarter" creatures is the realm of SCS. As how your only suggestion was a backstab script, that might be a bit difficult to replicate for an enemy NPC. I have a script that does this only by using some Velveeta-style cheese. I think WizWom has a better version, possibly Yovaneth (though as a PC script), maybe aVENGER_RR. Not sure if DavidW has one but if he does, I'm sure it's better than mine. It would be really great to have a "Smarter Thieves" component to match the priests and mages. Preferably one that doesn't need to resort to 20k+ lines of script .

 

Hmm...I could swear I've seen thieves quaffing Inv Potions and the backstab in some of the IE games, but I can't remember the details.

I don't know how often I've read "thieves sux". To me thieves, and especially fighter/thieves, are a must for bringing down tough humanoids, thanks to their backstab ability. In most of my IWD games, it's my F/T that is responsible for half the XP gained and (s)he usually has killed the most enemies as well. And in my last, now abandonded in the Nashkel mines, BG game Montaron (I really like that little runt) has been by far the most effective party member; much better than Khalid.

Also in the good old Gold Box games, the only way to bring down Drow Lords, unless you were really lucky with Hold Person or Stinking Cloud, was to use a beefed (haste and strength) fighter/thief to backstab.

 

So a "Smarter Thieves" component really needs them to be able to use their best weapon.

 

BTW, BG1 Adventures don't touch Ravenscar, so I guess I'll have to come up with something myself...

[Miloch]

Hmm...I could swear I've seen thieves quaffing Inv Potions and the backstab in some of the IE games, but I can't remember the details.

Well, SCS will give them the potion-quaffing, and if one happens to be Invisibility and the thief happens to be at the right angle, he'll backstab automatically. But it's hard to script them to do this intentionally, and also to get them to sneak properly, set snares and so forth. Who knows, maybe DavidW already has something in his bag of tricks.

To me thieves, and especially fighter/thieves, are a must for bringing down tough humanoids, thanks to their backstab ability.

I almost always play a fighter/thief or something similar, but mainly because I like the rougher aspects of fighting and looting and can't be bothered with fancy stuff like spellcasting . If the barbarian HP weren't hardcoded and buggy, I'd probably always be a barbarian/thief, just like Conan, Fafhrd and all the timeless barbarian rogues. But great PCs don't always translate to great NPCs.

Also in the good old Gold Box games, the only way to bring down Drow Lords, unless you were really lucky with Hold Person or Stinking Cloud, was to use a beefed (haste and strength) fighter/thief to backstab.

Ah, the good old days. Someone should really remake those games.

BTW, BG1 Adventures don't touch Ravenscar, so I guess I'll have to come up with something myself...

Yeah, now that I looked at the guy, it was in the BG1 Fixpack where we were talking about him. Because I'm pretty sure having 3 in every stat and 0 in every other attribute is a bug, and not intentional. I think the discussion only went as far as what "fixed" values should be, and I don't know if it even really went that far. I think I basically said, let's roll 4d6 for everything, throw out the lowest die for each stat, arrange them suitably or some other such convention, but we could probably just pick values too.

[erebusant]

Hmm...I could swear I've seen thieves quaffing Inv Potions and the backstab in some of the IE games, but I can't remember the details.

Well, SCS will give them the potion-quaffing, and if one happens to be Invisibility and the thief happens to be at the right angle, he'll backstab automatically. But it's hard to script them to do this intentionally, and also to get them to sneak properly, set snares and so forth. Who knows, maybe DavidW already has something in his bag of tricks.

To me thieves, and especially fighter/thieves, are a must for bringing down tough humanoids, thanks to their backstab ability.

I almost always play a fighter/thief or something similar, but mainly because I like the rougher aspects of fighting and looting and can't be bothered with fancy stuff like spellcasting . If the barbarian HP weren't hardcoded and buggy, I'd probably always be a barbarian/thief, just like Conan, Fafhrd and all the timeless barbarian rogues. But great PCs don't always translate to great NPCs.

Also in the good old Gold Box games, the only way to bring down Drow Lords, unless you were really lucky with Hold Person or Stinking Cloud, was to use a beefed (haste and strength) fighter/thief to backstab.

Ah, the good old days. Someone should really remake those games.

BTW, BG1 Adventures don't touch Ravenscar, so I guess I'll have to come up with something myself...

Yeah, now that I looked at the guy, it was in the BG1 Fixpack where we were talking about him. Because I'm pretty sure having 3 in every stat and 0 in every other attribute is a bug, and not intentional. I think the discussion only went as far as what "fixed" values should be, and I don't know if it even really went that far. I think I basically said, let's roll 4d6 for everything, throw out the lowest die for each stat, arrange them suitably or some other such convention, but we could probably just pick values too.

Vault v6 for BGT beefs him up a bit...

COPY_EXISTING ~alatos.cre~  ~override~
 PATCH_IF (SOURCE_SIZE > 0x2d3) THEN BEGIN // protects against invalid files
WRITE_SHORT 0x0014	10000		   // XP Value
WRITE_SHORT 0x001c	575			 // GP
WRITE_SHORT 0x0024	150			 // Current HP
WRITE_SHORT 0x0026	150			 // Max HP
WRITE_BYTE 0x0052	 ~-2~			// THAC0
WRITE_BYTE 0x0053	 2			   // Number of Attacks
WRITE_BYTE 0x0067	 70			  // Open Locks
WRITE_BYTE 0x0068	 70			  // Move Silently
WRITE_BYTE 0x0069	 70			  // Find/Disarm Traps
WRITE_BYTE 0x006a	 75			  // Pick Pockets
WRITE_BYTE 0x006f	 2			   // Small Sword Proficiency
WRITE_BYTE 0x0070	 2			   // Bow Proficiency
WRITE_BYTE 0x0238	 19			  // Strength
WRITE_BYTE 0x023a	 12			  // Intelligence
WRITE_BYTE 0x023b	 16			  // Wisdom
WRITE_BYTE 0x023c	 19			  // Dexterity
WRITE_BYTE 0x023d	 13			  // Constitution
WRITE_BYTE 0x023e	 14			  // Charisma
WRITE_BYTE 0x0270	 128			 // Enemy-Ally
REPLACE_CRE_ITEM		~LEAT03~	#0 #0 #0	~NONE~	~ARMOR~	EQUIP
REPLACE_CRE_ITEM		~DAGG03~	#0 #0 #0	~NONE~	~WEAPON1~	EQUIP
 ADD_CRE_ITEM ~POTN36~ #3 #0 #0 ~NONE~ ~QItem1~ // Put potions in Quick Item 1 slot
 ADD_CRE_ITEM ~AMULTF~ #15 #0 #0 ~NONE~ ~Amulet~ // equip Amulet
 END
 BUT_ONLY_IF_IT_CHANGES

COPY ~vault/itm3/amultf.itm~		~override/amultf.itm~		// new items
  SAY NAME1 ~Amulet~
  SAY NAME2 ~Talisman of Ravenscar~
  SAY UNIDENTIFIED_DESC ~A necklace is a piece of ornamental metal jewelry usually made of silver, gold, platinum, or other precious metal, and adorned with gems.  A necklace is always worn on the neck and can be of any length.~
  SAY DESC ~This mysterious talisman was crafted by the Shadow Thieves of Amn and given to one of their guild leaders, Alatos "Ravenscar". The talisman boosts dexterity and grants its wearer heightened thieving skills and night vision. How it came to be in your possession only proves that there is truly no honor among thieves.

STATISTICS:

Special:
+1 Dexterity while equipped
Infravision while equipped
Invisibility for 10 turns (limited charges)
Find/Remove traps:  +5% bonus
Pick pockets:  +5% bonus
Pick locks:  +5% bonus
Hide in shadows:  +5% bonus
Usable by:
Thief (Single, Multi, Dual Class)~

[Miloch]

Vault v6 for BGT beefs him up a bit...

Heh, I'll say. What is he, half orc and half elf with that STR and DEX?

 

Some of the stats might be ok, except the cheated ones. And the XP value should be about half that, by PnP (and game) standards. No scripting changes either, I take it. But I suppose you just did a pretty faithful conversion of the mod, or did you try to "balance" stuff too?

 

(Also, any plans for a Tutu version or is one of us gonna have to do it?)

 

(Edit: Shouldn't need EQUIP for a non-weapon btw. Also, XP Value and Gold should be WRITE_LONG values. Only noticed that 'cause I mentioned it to someone else recently.)

[Salk]

I will direct aVenger to this thread because I believe an improvement would suit RR.

[aVENGER_(RR)]

I will direct aVenger to this thread because I believe an improvement would suit RR.

 

As already noted in the RR forum, I think this is better left to SCS.

 

Also, as Miloch, I too would prefer that human characters are restricted to legitimate human-like stats. Any additional bonuses should come from equipment and/or potions.

[DavidW]

Hmm...I could swear I've seen thieves quaffing Inv Potions and the backstab in some of the IE games, but I can't remember the details.

Well, SCS will give them the potion-quaffing, and if one happens to be Invisibility and the thief happens to be at the right angle, he'll backstab automatically. But it's hard to script them to do this intentionally, and also to get them to sneak properly, set snares and so forth. Who knows, maybe DavidW already has something in his bag of tricks.

 

It's easier to do than you'd think. NPC thieves basically don't have to worry about angle, all they need to do is quaff an invisibility potion and attack. This is already in the SCS/SCS2 scripts, though you don't in practice see it much in SCS1 (fewer thieves, and they get given potions less often).

 

As always, SCS ends up biased towards encounters that I personally do, and I never fight the thieves. I'll give it some thought for a future version.

[Guest PetrusOctavianus]

Thanks for replies, guys.

 

Miloch, what do you mean by the Barbarian HP being bugged?

 

Erebusant, The Vault seems "slightly" overpowered...I think Ravenscar should be something between a wimp and a super hero.

 

All, using Near Infinity, which script(s) should I assign to Ravenscar, so that he will try to quaff potions (I'll put some inv potions in his inventory) and backstab? With my currently installed mods he only has the default script _tasight.bcs and the override script macshout.bcs

 

Also, I see that many scripts seem to depend on the NPCs having a Fire Agate gem in their inventory?

[DavidW]

Thanks for replies, guys.

 

Miloch, what do you mean by the Barbarian HP being bugged?

 

Erebusant, The Vault seems "slightly" overpowered...I think Ravenscar should be something between a wimp and a super hero.

 

All, using Near Infinity, which script(s) should I assign to Ravenscar, so that he will try to quaff potions (I'll put some inv potions in his inventory) and backstab? With my currently installed mods he only has the default script _tasight.bcs and the override script macshout.bcs

The SCS version of _tasight.bcs should be enough (though its backstab mode is less optimised than the SCS2 version, pending the next SCS release).

 

Also, I see that many scripts seem to depend on the NPCs having a Fire Agate gem in their inventory?

This is SCS again - they're undroppable markers. Sometimes it's easiest to fine-tune a creature's behaviour that way rather than giving it a dedicated script.

[Miloch]

But it's hard to script them to do this intentionally, and also to get them to sneak properly, set snares and so forth.

It's easier to do than you'd think. NPC thieves basically don't have to worry about angle, all they need to do is quaff an invisibility potion and attack. This is already in the SCS/SCS2 scripts, though you don't in practice see it much in SCS1 (fewer thieves, and they get given potions less often).

Well, I meant difficult to do without resorting to engine cheese, heh. I did manage something fairly realistic based on advice from Yovaneth and/or cirrerek to use an action such as MoveToObjectFollow (or was it FollowObjectFormation) or something like that. Basically, the thief would run offscreen so he could "sneak" properly (using an Invisibility with a percentage chance equal to the thief's skill) and come up behind the target with the Follow, then once in range, backstab the sucker. Looked a little more believable than having them just quaff invis potions as if they were cheap beers and stabbing people with no regards to whether they stuck them in the back or in the chest.

Miloch, what do you mean by the Barbarian HP being bugged?

Well they get 1d12 HP per level, which is intentional, but it's hardcoded in the engine, so if you try using any mods that work on this (like Tweaks' "NWN-style HP") it'll get buggy results, like 110HP at 1st level etc. And also AFAIK you can't dual class with a barbarian effectively, even though 2e rules permit several combos, including barbarian/shamans and so forth. Of course, someone could still make a kit to achieve equivalent results probably.

[DavidW]

But it's hard to script them to do this intentionally, and also to get them to sneak properly, set snares and so forth.

It's easier to do than you'd think. NPC thieves basically don't have to worry about angle, all they need to do is quaff an invisibility potion and attack. This is already in the SCS/SCS2 scripts, though you don't in practice see it much in SCS1 (fewer thieves, and they get given potions less often).

Well, I meant difficult to do without resorting to engine cheese, heh.

 

This particular cheese doesn't bother me: manifestly it's there because the designers knew the scripting engine couldn't handle backstabbing without it.