Some impressions

[Loz]

On the subject of option 1/2/3 mages I suppose one of the main problems is the readme sometimes isn't exactly that clear on what you're getting. Although I know you DW personally do not view long term buffs as pre-buffs or instant casts and rather as long term defences that should be in place(not unreasonable for many enemies like adventurers, drow war parties wandering the underdark, cowled wizards on duty etc.) but they do look like quick buffs in the combat log. The elemental protection spells are particuarly suprising, as they are not mentioned in the readme, which leads you to believe stoneskin and melfs meteors(which actually list their duration in hours in the game) are about all you'll see being precast. As I understand, turns are a much longer time period than you might think, and the hour/turns differentiation can be a bit confusing to someone looking at the in game description. Still - option 3 being presented a little more as a 'lightly buffing' option might encourage more to select it on install, and subsequently result in less complaints of overbuffed enemies. Currently the readme says this 'Option 3: Mages never cast spells instantly. (Though, again, they can very quickly use contingencies and sequencers to defend themselves.)' - many people probably think "well I don't want mages to be TOO easy".

 

The other problem is that option 2 is very vague. 'Option 2: Mages are allowed to cast spells instantly at the start of combat only when they are created near the PC' - What exactly does this mean? Most people like to know more concretely which are the encounters that are going to be affected when they choose an option, not have a lottery each time a mage fight comes along. It may be more obvious for someone familiar with the BG2 scripting language and in particular character creation but to me it is a little confusing. I can see that cowled wizards will be getting prebuffs but some are less obvious. What happens if they are created near you as neutral and have a quest or dialog before they go hostile, do they get prebuffs too? What about a case like treejon, where I believe his character is replaced by another(killable) one just before you fight him. A more concise(even a partial list of some of the more important fights) of who is affected may entice more people to choose this option.

 

Again, just speaking from a players perspective after taking a look at the readme it appears to me that option 1 mages will be the only decent ones. But after having played with option 3 mages for a bit too, I find them closer to vanilla interpretation on prebuffing and my own enjoyed playstyle. Perhaps option 2 mages would be popular among many players if it was clearer which fights(especially which of the boss fights) were affected. I'd like to see triggers tweaked a little for option 3 mages as i said earlier, as I believe that is the one thing lacking in making them simply smarter vanilla mages(similar in feel to ascension jon, which is what I like). Perhaps for many though it is simply a case of not having picked the right option for their playstyle/enjoyment.

[Ardanis]

I'm gonna take a chance and bug you once again to add an option for mid-strong buffs

[Dakk]

'Option 2: Mages are allowed to cast spells instantly at the start of combat only when they are created near the PC' - What exactly does this mean? Most people like to know more concretely which are the encounters that are going to be affected when they choose an option, not have a lottery each time a mage fight comes along. It may be more obvious for someone familiar with the BG2 scripting language and in particular character creation but to me it is a little confusing. I can see that cowled wizards will be getting prebuffs but some are less obvious. What happens if they are created near you as neutral and have a quest or dialog before they go hostile, do they get prebuffs too? What about a case like treejon, where I believe his character is replaced by another(killable) one just before you fight him. A more concise(even a partial list of some of the more important fights) of who is affected may entice more people to choose this option.

 

Hey, that's exactly what I've always wondered Always play with option 2, but I've no idea what I'm getting above option 1 (sometimes you just got to go with what feels right )...

[DavidW]

@Loz (option 2): well, the exact formula is, wizards prebuff if they are hostile and in sight of a PC within six seconds of being created. I can't give a list of which mages this affects because I don't know myself. (There are over 200 mages in BG2 and I've only played through the game six times - believe it or not, part of the reason SCS2 is so automated is because I don't want to spoil the game for myself too much!)

 

@Loz (long-term buffs): see, this is what you get for responding to player feedback Originally wizards cast Stoneskin as soon as they were created, even if the player was nowhere near them at the time. Then people started complaining that they didn't like all the neutral wizards they ran into to be stoneskinned, so I changed it. I agree, that makes the readme a bit outdated. (Though Minute Meteors isn't insta-cast - in fact, actually it's not cast at all, for technical reasons it's faked.)

 

@Ardanis: as I recall, last time I complained that I didn't know what the logic was supposed to be for what mid-level buffs would be. I still don't. In principle I'd consider it if someone gave me a detailed rationale of what they meant by it. (Though in practice it's a bit of a pain to maintain multiple buffing spreads.)

[Demivrgvs]

Long term buffs

David, just a "technical" suggestion...for Stoneskin you may use a custom spl file identical to the original spell but without "name" (so that players won't see any string displayed on screen when Stoneskin is activated) and with no animation (it works even better if the exe patch component is installed). Am I wrong?

 

P.S and then some players' feedback will look like this "why can't I hit mages with my weapon?!" or "it's not fair enemy mages don't tell me they are casting Stoneskin!".

 

P.P.S Do you ever use Mage Armor has long term buff? I know it's rather pointless in vanilla but you may add it within SCSI spells used when IR is installed imo, because AC 3-4 in BG1 isn't that bad.

[Salk]

Personally I would not wish any change in the component's present structure (other than optimizations to the code or other minor improvements like improved compatibility with Spell Revisions).

[Ardanis]

@DavidW

The logic is the following.

 

Full power buffs usually require a lot of effort to bring down, especially in low-mid levels, when party simply doesn't have enough spellslots, so it basically becomes fight a wizard - rest - fight another wizard - rest again.

Another point is, well, as you've said here yourself sometimes it becomes too boring to prebuff each and every time, so throwing in 2-3 defensive spells instead of 5-6 is more convenient to do. But that leaves a fight more challenging than it is supposed to be (as AI expects full party buff, not partial).

 

This can be solved by switching AI prebuff off, which I ended up doing on a regular basis, turning it on when it felt sensible, but most of fights become much easier this way, because walking in without Stoneskin or the like is often suicidal.

And another side - due to the engine, if one pauses game immediately as the battle starts, one might get lucky and take a shot (with poisoned arrow, for example) at wizard a moment before his Contingencies/Triggers activate, interrupting further spellcasting, buying another round, making a short work of poor guy.

The most reasonable advicet would be 'don't do it', which I had to follow, but since I most always do pause the game at the start to bring my own Triggers on, it's a bit painful to watch over archers so they don't shoot before they are allowed.

[Dakk]

well, the exact formula is, wizards prebuff if they are hostile and in sight of a PC within six seconds of being created.

Doh, even when I get the option explained I don't get it...

 

I suppose I need to have "created" defined to understand where it applies - and possibly also an example of a (preferrably BG1) mage it applies to, please?

[DrAzTiK]

Full power buffs usually require a lot of effort to bring down, especially in low-mid levels, when party simply doesn't have enough spellslots, so it basically becomes fight a wizard - rest - fight another wizard - rest again

Imo the problem is more the need to rest to regain spell. This is really silly and obviously inappropriate for a video game.

 

That's why everybody should dowload :

http://www.teambg.eu/forum/index.php?PHPSE...&board=24.0

(just don't set silly timing)

 

I wonder if warriors could be a bit more tough drinking healing potions under 70%HP (instead of 50%hp). it's just a suggestion.

[Ardanis]

That's why everybody should dowload :

http://www.teambg.eu/forum/index.php?PHPSE...&board=24.0

(just don't set silly timing)

Big 'no' from me

[Demivrgvs]

That's why everybody should dowload :

http://www.teambg.eu/forum/index.php?PHPSE...&board=24.0

(just don't set silly timing)

Big 'no' from me

From me too.

 

Having the spellbook automatically refreshed makes the whole thing tactically much less interesting. Actually I'd do prefer if David prevent from resting in certain areas (e.g. Nalia's Keep, Mind Flayer's city, ...) or at least limit it to once (e.g. like he did for the starting dungeon), because than I would have to learn (actually I already play like that ) how to not waste all my spells on each and every encounter, and keep some crucial spells for the most difficult ones.

 

The "problem" imo is that most players play BG like they would play Diablo or WoW, while mages in D&D (before 4th edition which made it a poor copy of WoW) should be played like the ones you read of on fantasy books. Have you seen Raistlin or Gandalf firing waves of spells everywhere and everytime they meet an opponent?

[Loz]

Yes, I much prefer wizards to stoneskin only on having gone hostile as I too do not like seeing every mage in athkatla walking around under the effects of stoneskin. I was merely pointing out that the readme is a little misleading.

 

On the earlier point of spell thrust bypassing GoI and secret word not, I had this play experience in my game too. I do not think it is a bug however and would very much NOT like to see it changed as it keeps the whole spell system balanced. Right now if you have a mage protected by GoI, II, a spell turning and SI:D, you can spell thrust out the spell immunity and then true sight him. Then you can use any high level antimagic you'd like to remove the other spell protections(KWW, spellstrike, ruby ray, pierce magic/shield). If spell thrust is blocked by GoI then you start to get a very boring system. Ruby Ray spam will be the only availible strategy as everything else either does not penetrate GoI or cannot target II. That removes diversity which is one of the great things in the BG2 spell system. I also feel secret word SHOULD be blocked by GoI as it is right now. Firstly secret word mentions pretty much everything it can remove in the description and GoI is not there, so I would assume it is intentional. Secondly I do not like level 7 mages removing all the protecions of high level mages, or a level 4 spell being the only thing you really need for this job(unless they have spell trap) - again, diversity of options is good.

 

Also to note - the way it works right now, a level 12 mage has access to GoI, SI:D and II. A level 12 mage can also remove this combo by using spell thrust, oracle and then pierce magic. If spell thrust gets blocked by GoI, you can no longer counter this combination with an equally levelled mage. I do not find that to be good design, as it encourages 'wait out' battles.

 

It might be nice to update the descriptions however. Particuarly spell thrust, a new player to scsii is always going to find the mages tough, and knowing that his spell thrust is not blocked by GoI may be very helpful. I know I only discovered it by luck, having assumed it would be blocked after trying secret word.

 

On the matter of prebuffing, personally I find it unrealistic that in just about any situation, even an ambush enemies could predict down to minutes exactly when the party will arrive and expend all their defenses on the assumption that they are right. The time it takes to fully buff is around 1/2 the time it takes for some of them to start expiring. Even the slightest bit of mistiming would result in alot of wasted spells and probably death considering those spells were your defenses. I can see where some people are coming from when they requested an intermediate level of buffing both in terms of gamplay experience and realism. I find it entirely plausible that bandits ambushing you would sort of say 'ok they're coming now' and have the time to throw up a MGoI or something just before they go. Similarly cowled wizards are needed immedietely after an infringement of the law, they perhaps have long term defences in place when they know they may be called on but the time between the infringement and justice is probably only enough to slap on a spell turning and a fire shield or something. I view the warning you get that Illasera is coming as a good example of about how much time most opponents would likely have to prepare even if they knew a fight was coming. Check out the cowled wizards fighting irenicus in spellhold cutscene, and the time they had to get ready after the third one told them irenicus was coming - these to me are realistic amounts of time people have for buffing. I can definetely see why people would call for a buffing option with say 1-3 allowed per mage, but in some ways option 3 already accomplishes this if you view the elemental protections as buffs.

 

This is about what bioware did with vanilla scripts. Obviously it makes them alot tougher to have many more protections at the start of a fight, but I don't buy the realism part.

[Loz]

I also agree with Demi that a rest restrictions component could be interesting. Something more systematic however, like you are unable to rest more than once per 8 hours(inns/stronghold/planar stronghold not affected - this way you can relax when not questing/try things out). This would force people to ration their resources a little more, might end up being a little tedious though, hard to tell. You'd also need a good way to show the player how long they had till their next rest, or it would be very annoying. Some kind of dial counting down. Perhaps the clock(in the bottom left?) counting down and then changing colour slightly when you were able to rest. I fear this is rather beyond the scope of scsii however. It might be interesting for another mod though.

[DrAzTiK]

Having the spellbook automatically refreshed makes the whole thing tactically much less interesting

Well with current jarno beta of Spell System Adjustment Mod, you can check the timing refresh for each level. Of course the goal is not to have time stop refresh instantaneously.

 

Erf, really I find the way to regain spell to much an extreme. Maybe it's work great on Pnp but in a video game like BG2, it's not convenient and fun at all. Again, I don't say I like the other extreme. (refresh instantaneously)

[DavidW]

@DavidW

The logic is the following.

 

Full power buffs usually require a lot of effort to bring down, especially in low-mid levels, when party simply doesn't have enough spellslots, so it basically becomes fight a wizard - rest - fight another wizard - rest again.

Another point is, well, as you've said here yourself sometimes it becomes too boring to prebuff each and every time, so throwing in 2-3 defensive spells instead of 5-6 is more convenient to do. But that leaves a fight more challenging than it is supposed to be (as AI expects full party buff, not partial).

 

I see the appeal from a game-enjoyment perspective (to some extent). What I mean is: what's the internal logic I use to work out which spells mages do and don't buff with? I'm not keen on the logic being just "what will make an interesting challenge" without some consideration of intelligent behaviour.

 

And another side - due to the engine, if one pauses game immediately as the battle starts, one might get lucky and take a shot (with poisoned arrow, for example) at wizard a moment before his Contingencies/Triggers activate, interrupting further spellcasting, buying another round, making a short work of poor guy.

The most reasonable advicet would be 'don't do it', which I had to follow, but since I most always do pause the game at the start to bring my own Triggers on, it's a bit painful to watch over archers so they don't shoot before they are allowed.

Well, this is indeed a pain, but I'm not sure prebuffing helps - it takes them a moment to do that too. (Sometimes, anyway - it's okay for creatures created some distance from you.)

 

 

well, the exact formula is, wizards prebuff if they are hostile and in sight of a PC within six seconds of being created.

Doh, even when I get the option explained I don't get it...

 

I suppose I need to have "created" defined to understand where it applies - and possibly also an example of a (preferrably BG1) mage it applies to, please?

 

"Created" meaning the creature first comes into existence in the game. It's hard to think of BG1 examples because it's rarely true in BG1, but BG2 examples are the Cowled wizards who teleport in when you cast spells. Obviously the in-game logic is that they were previously somewhere else, but as far as the engine is concerned they just come into existence next to you. This is opposed to, say, the wizards waiting for you at the Cloakwood mines, who come into existence when you enter the screen and so have been there a while before the party arrives.

 

 

On the matter of prebuffing, personally I find it unrealistic that in just about any situation, even an ambush enemies could predict down to minutes exactly when the party will arrive and expend all their defenses on the assumption that they are right. The time it takes to fully buff is around 1/2 the time it takes for some of them to start expiring. Even the slightest bit of mistiming would result in alot of wasted spells and probably death considering those spells were your defenses.

 

I accept this in principle - but this is exactly how ambushes set by the party work, so I'm just following that pattern. (I accept I'm not catering for the player who uses a self-imposed limit of (say) 3 rounds of buffing - but there are only so many permutations I can allow for.) Notice that I don't use ultra-short-duration prebuffs - Protection from Magic Weapons always gets cast (or Contingencied/Spell Triggered) in real time.