In defense of the wee folk

[Icendoan]

Kundane gives +1 APR, which can hardly be frowned upon.

 

Icen

[Ayce]

Well, I'm still unconvinced about the THAC0 issue, my F14/M14 was definitely less effective in melee combat than his single-class warrior counterparts (Keldorn & Valygar). I also found this true of Jaheira (I've read many posts that describe Jaheira as a tank, but all ever does for me is hold out for awhile before she needs to be bailed out, even with ironskins active).

 

That's just been my experience.

[Domi]

Oh, it very well can be that all my characters are pretty bad so I just didn't see the difference Nevertheless, I like both Jan and Mazzy. 'Nyways, have fun!

[Ayce]

Well just to belabour the point for the sake of discussion................

 

Let me first qualify my previous statements by saying the the THAC0 advantage of a single-class fighter over a single-class palidan or ranger is small, possibly irrelevant. Although in a strict head-to-head encounter, all other considerations being equal, statistics dictate that the fighter will win. Anyway...............

 

Let's consider the stats at 3,000,000 XP

 

Fighter is level 20, THACO = 1

Palidan/Ranger is level 18, THACO = 3

Multi-Class (Two Classes) Fighter is level 14, THAC0 = 7

Multi-Class (Three Classes) Fighter is level 12, THACO = 9

 

And at 6,000,000 XP

 

Fighter is level 32, THACO = -11

Palidan/Ranger is level 28, THACO = -7

Two-Class Fighter is Level 20, THACO = 1

Three-Class Fighter is level 16, THACO = 5

 

Against most opponents the diff between Fighter and Palidan/Ranger will be minimal at best, the diff between SCFighter and 2CFighter not that much either. However, against the toughest opponents, I beg to differ (against Demogorgon, I guarantee you want that -11 THACO as opposed to just 1, he isn't the only such opponent).

 

True, against Golems and Trolls, it really doesn't matter, but even Mind Flayers and Rakshashas, you want to take them down as quickly as possilbe before they eat your brains out (or cast cloudkill and chain lightning). This is best done by the single-class warrior. Valygar was always particularly deadly with Celestial Fury and a sneak attack, but we're talking about Mazzy.

 

I've completed SOA three times (aborted two others in favor of other characters a/o games) and I'm now playing my fourth run through. I've completed ToB once, aborted once other in favor of starting with a new character.

 

Based on my experience, I've found that single-class warriors vastly outshine their multi-class counterparts. Usually, Keldorn or Valygar would finish off an opponent, then have to come rescue my struggling F/M and/or Jaheira. Thank God for stoneskin and iron skins, so they could last long enough to be rescued.

 

All that said, my point in posting this topic is that, based on posts I've read all over the net, a lot of players have low regard for Mazzy and Jan. This influenced my early playing, but I've found that they both have a lot to offer the party and that Mazzy is as good, or better, on the front lines as anyone.

 

Peace Out.

[Raj]

And at 6,000,000 XP

 

Fighter is level 32, THACO = -11 1

Palidan/Ranger is level 28, THACO = -7 1

Two-Class Fighter is Level 20, THACO = 1

Three-Class Fighter is level 16, THACO = 5

 

base thac0 doesn't progress past 1

 

That being said, Mazzy shines as a fighter and short sword is not a bad weapon at all for the SoA part of the game, while for ToB she might have put enough points into something else.

 

Jan can be great as a fully buffed backstabber/trapper/support mage but it takes him too long to reach full potential, I end bored of him sooner.

[Ayce]

Hmmm, I thought I'd seen otherwise when I played ToB. It's been awhile, must've been the adjusted THAC0. I'll have to check it on my next playthrough.

[Ardanis]

Fighter is level 32, THACO = -11

Palidan/Ranger is level 28, THACO = -7

Thac0 progression stops at 20th level

 

Also, don't forget about proficiency, STR and weapon bonuses. Altogether they add up quite a bit (from +5 to +15), which usually is enough to completely overcome AC of any ordinary opponent. Tough enemies - well, I can see how extra two points of Thac0 might be useful, but in reality it still doesn't matter much. Like I've said, I've played several times with Thac0 worse than that of pure fighter yet never had any sort of trouble. And I didn't use any mods' equipment, only what came with the game itself.

 

Usually, Keldorn or Valygar would finish off an opponent, then have to come rescue my struggling F/M and/or Jaheira. Thank God for stoneskin and iron skins, so they could last long enough to be rescued.

Killing isn't their main purpose (albeit WWing with a powerful two-hander is nothing to be ignored, it took out a vast amount of guys in my games), it's tanking where they really shine, especially F/Ms. Sometimes there're way too many enemies than two fighters can deal with without ending up dead. And by the time they reach 3M XP they start to be as devastating as most any other warrior (except kensai for an obvious reason).

[the bigg]

My advice would be to try and play with a Fighter/Thief, Anomen, Jaheira, Yoshimoen, Aerie and Kelsey (or another pure mage type). After you hit about 1M XP (when you wouldn't have Mazzy anyway), your game will likely be easier than if you were using two pure fighters, because magic is so much more versatile than melee. The only place where you're likely to have issues is the Underdark - Drows have very low ACs and good magic resistance (and 2clases won't yet have a good Thac0). Demogorgon (or any other single battle) shouldn't be a deciding factor when powergaming - and, even then, by the time you're facing ToB bosses, a two-class fighter will have a Thac0 of 5 or less, versus the single class' 1 - not a big difference.

[Ayce]

Kundane gives +1 APR, which can hardly be frowned upon.

 

I wasn't aware of that (always left it in Jan or Imoen's inventory and never really used it as they were almost always in archer mode). Anyway, it still lacks the raw power of a lot of other weapons in the game, but the thing that really hurts is that it is not +3. That just hurts in some critical battles (like the Balor in the underdark, Bohdi and several other vampires). There really needed to be a +3 short sword in the game, designed with Mazzy in mind. Of course, she could use the Sword of Backstabbing or Cutthroat, like I said, but their really not Mazzy's style.

 

Onward and upward....................

[Icendoan]

No, you leave it in your offhand for +2 APR (+1 from Kundane, +1 offhand attack), and then something like the Short Sword of Mask (+4) in your main hand.

 

Icen

[BigRob]

That's definitely a good tactic for Mazzy as a front-line fighter. One of the major advantages of a pureclass warrior though comes from the grandmastery additonal damage and attacks per round (depending on which version of grandmastery you're running). A dual weilding fighter with grandmastery is a chainsaw of destruction (and a terror of the ages with Improved Haste), and even a tanking weapon and shield fighter with grandmastery can put out respectable damage.

 

Personally, I find that while magic is necessary to the game, that melee damage can bring down many dangerous enemies far more reliably, particularly liches, high level mages (spell disrupton), dragons, and Rakshashas (immunity to spells below 8th level is a killer there).

[Ayce]

Personally, I find that while magic is necessary to the game, that melee damage can bring down many dangerous enemies far more reliably, particularly liches, high level mages (spell disrupton), dragons, and Rakshashas (immunity to spells below 8th level is a killer there).

 

Exactly. Warriors can't handle everything, but I definitelly rely on them more than spellcasters. As I said, Valygar with dual-katana would cut enemies like Illithids and Rakshasas to ribbons before they even could mount an offensive (magic is does precious little good against them). F14/M14 PC and Jariera were too slow taking them down and ran a serious risk of getting their brains eaten out against illithids every time.

 

Valygar and Keldorn were simply the melee team-supreme (Keldorn with Guantlets of Dexterity and Sentinel that is), all told, he had an AC something like AC -12. He was quite handy with a longsword and shield, Valygar would sneak attack, nothing could withstand them (especially with Keldorn's dispel magic ability, so much for liches and mages). Meanwhile, F14/M14 PC and Jaheira were only able to handle weak-medium opponents and offer spell/summoning support against opponents where it was needed.

[2.72]

I thought that lich's spell immunities made Dispel worthless against them. Am I mistaken?

 

The one problem with Kundane is that you can easily go over the 5 APR cap if you use un-nerfed grandmastery and haste, which makes Mazzy's haste only marginally useful. That being said, I still think that it's pretty good.

 

Actually, I think that spellcasters are very potent against mind flayers. Skeleton Warriors, Mordey's Swords and the spell Chaotic Commands are all worth their weight in gold. It's true that with appropriate equipment and Berserker's Rage, warriors can do very well also. Against enemy mages (and liches and even Rakshasa) I rely heavily on both casters and a strong frontline. Except for inquisitors, mages are the best in the game at stripping enemies of their defenses, but warriors can disrupt them and do a lot more damage before they get their defensive spells up again.

[Icendoan]

Now, the 5 APR cap doesn't take into account Haste, meaning, at most, you get 9/2. Haste will take you up to 11/2, and Imp. Haste to 9, maximum.

 

And then only if you have both Belm and Kundane at once.

 

Skeleton Warriors and Mordy Swords are all potent warriors. Chaotic Commands remains awesome, nonetheless.

 

I would think a spell like Sunfire would be quicker mentioned, as it goes straight through Magic Resistance. I think Death Spell works too, as well.

 

For the warriors and Ilithid, try Deathblow and Greater Deathblow.

 

Here is one for Jahiera, as cheesy as it is:

 

Deathblow will kill Illithids. Fireseed does AoE damage. Fireseed + Deathblow = AoE Deathblow. You can destroy cities in minutes.

 

Icen

[Ayce]

I thought that lich's spell immunities made Dispel worthless against them. Am I mistaken?

 

 

Well, I find Breach and Pierce magic are useful against liches, but a straight dispel magic will work, if you're strong enough. This is what makes Keldorn (or a high enough level Viconia or Anomen) shine.

 

Noting that we have gotten off topic

 

Anyway, remember, an inquisitor casts his/her dispel magic at twice their actual level. With Keldorn (or a PC inquisitor), you will go through liches (and mages) like a hot knife through butter. I did the whole Kangaxx quest in one quick setting without resting my party...............

 

1. Inquisitor dispel magic has casting time =1. Use it, hit the lich before he can cast time stop. This, does dispel your own defenses as well as it is not a targeted remove magic spell. With a liches magical defenses down, you don't need them anyway, just don't waste them when you're facing liches. Getting off a sunray first also works wonders..................

 

2. Contingencies go into effect, usually a mislead spell. True sight. Done.

 

3. Finish the lich off. If he erects another protection from magic weapons (via contingency), use dispel magic again..................

 

4. End of lich, disposed of like a common pest. It worked every time. Try it.