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better casting in school of specialization - how would you do it?


subtledoctor

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I'm working on a mod (right now it's just a feasibility study) to improve the wizard kits. As part of it, I'd like to make specialists better at magic within their specialization.

 

As an example, I'm considering folding Non-detection into Invisibility spells when cast by Illusionists - they should be "better" at being invisible than other wizards. For Diviners, I'm thinking of giving them innate access to Contingency right from level 1. Because they can see the future!

 

For now, let's talk about: Invokers.

 

I figure their special ability should basically be to do more damage with direct damage spells. But I'm a bit stuck figuring out the best way to implement that. My thought is, choose the list of spells we want to improve, and create copies of them that are more damaging. One of two things will happen: 1) specialists will automatically learn spells in their school upon level-up, so Invokers will get the improved versions of these spells and will be *unable* to learn the normal versions from scrolls; or 2) scrolls will be edited to teach the improved versions to specialists, and the normal versions to non-specialists.

 

Question is, how to create the improved version of these spells? I don't want to create the improved spelks beforehand, because the player could be using mods that edit the spells. So I'm trying to figure out the best way to copy and patch the existing spells.

 

Consider Fireball. I think it has 10 abilities: 2 with min level 1, 2 with min level 6, etc up to min level 10, representing the damage range from 5d6 to 10d6. (With half of them granting a save.)

 

Looping through every ability in Weidu to increase the damage seems like a pain. Instead I'm thinking about keeping it simple: add an extra ability that does a flat 1d6 fire damage, with min level 1, period. So you'll always do the normal damage plus 1d6 - a total of 6d6 at level five, and 11d6 at level 10.

 

Then just do the same thing for Agannazzar's, Lightning Bolt, Sunfire, etc. Just add ~1d6 base damage to every Invocation spell, separate and in addition to its normal effects. Does hat sound reasonable? Are there any problems that I'm missing? I suppose this might add extra projectiles... would that be bad?

 

How would you do it?

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You know that Tobex allows you to increase various damage types by percentage? Iirc, the only mod that took advantage of that so far is Daulmakan's Item pack.

So, you'd simply need to edit Invoker's clab and type AP_blah where blah is a spell which uses ToBex magic. I'm not sure how this would work on EE's, but plenty of stuff doesn't so... :)

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I'm targeting all versions of the game. The mod landscape is so fractured right now, with some stuff EE-only, some stuff not updated for EE, mod authors who don't seem to care about any game variant except the one they own... I don't want to contribute to that.

 

On the other hand I think that opcode does work in EE, and I don't mind requiring TobEx, as it is free and Weidu-based. So maybe Invokers could just get ~10-15% extra damage with... fire and electric effects? That would be super-simple. Unfortunately I can't use it for magic damage, as both SR and SCS go all-in on the theory that "magic damage = Necromancy damage - except sonetimes it's not, sometimes it's Invocation damage." (To my thinking Necromancy = negative energy = cold damage.)

 

But just fire and Lightning boosts could work well. Maybe give them some extra spells of this nature - Flame Blade, Flame Strike, Call Lightning, stuff like that.

 

Okay!

 

Assuming that works out I'm ready to call Invokers done. So moving on to the next question. And, I don't think I mentioned it but the premise here is that all specialists can cast all spells - there are no opposition schools. Instead they are defined solely by these bonuses. So, with that in mind,

 

What to do about Necromancers? How to make them better at Necromancy than other wizards? They have a wider range of spell types available - direct-damage, disabling, and summons. So what would make them interesting and unique? (Keep in mind it must work both with and without SR installed.)

 

EDIT: here's a crazy thought: not every specialist has to be the same. We could present most specialists as proper kits (I'm going to change some names, eg the Invoker will become a Pyromancer, which plays well into the +x% energy damage idea.)

 

But Necromancers could be an extra step removed - closer to being a separate class, like druids vs. clerics. Maybe certain Necromancy spells could be restricted *only* to Necromancers, the way nature spells are restricted to druids. That would be an aggressive change, and I'd probably keep ADHW off the list of restricted spells. But, in the abstract at least, it would be kind of cool.

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I'm targeting all versions of the game. The mod landscape is so fractured right now, with some stuff EE-only, some stuff not updated for EE, mod authors who don't seem to care about any game variant except the one they own... I don't want to contribute to that.

 

On the other hand I think that opcode does work in EE, and I don't mind requiring TobEx, as it is free and Weidu-based. So maybe Invokers could just get ~10-15% extra damage with... fire and electric effects?

There's also acid damage.

Also the necromantic negative energy is planar energy, which is not cold, but dark and more of just pure magical damage instead of cold. Look at Ice Storm spell, it's a pure evocation spell.

 

Necromancers... make the mage to be a lich... give them a scythe and let them reap. :p

Give them a Blood Golem -familiar that regenerates. Diablo-2-esk too much ? Yep ! Ahh, well.

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There's all kinds of damage, but a Pyromancer is all about high-energy... meaning heat and electricity.

 

As for necromancy, you can say whatever you like based on the lore of this game or that game, this edition or that edition. Based on the damage types we have (fire, electricity, acid, cold, magic, crushing, piercing, slashing) and the term "negative energy" and the idea of Drain effects, well in the real world cold is literally negative energy, a drain on energy. If you stop thinking about cold as "makes ice!" and start thinking about it as sapping heat, draining energy, then it works perfectly for Necromancy effects.

 

But, that would screw up SCS scripts, so instead Pyromancers will get a bonus with fire and lightning, and "magic damage" will continue in its weird role of being sometimes Necromantic and sometimes energetic.

 

If I do the above idea, limiting Necromancy spells only to Necromancers, then I'll probably boost those spells as well. Larloch's Drain will continue for up to five rounds; Ghoul Touch will cause Hold and Disease, like a real ghoul's touch; Vampiric Touch will cause a level drain, like a real vampire's touch, etc. Necromancers will be unique and dangerous. (And, the only wizards able to summon a Skeleton Warrior!)

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Vampiric Touch will cause a level drain, like a real vampire's touch,

My advice is not to do that, as it only affects the real classed characters, enemies if even them... and in the original game, not many of the monsters are actually classed... so you can drain Firkraag 22 times and he feels nothing of it(no lost spells, no lost HPs or thac0) and dies on the next.

Make it effect their thac0 with 1(per level), reduce their HPs about 6(per level) and that should do enough.

 

There's all kinds of damage, but a Pyromancer is all about high-energy... meaning heat and electricity.

Pyromancy has nothing to do with Necromancy, you do understand that ? The wikipedia link even shows them as, two distinct disciplines of the "forbidden arts" ... See you just love fire instead of dead corpses. Well-whatever.

Also what comes to the magical damage, it's opposite is not cold, or heat or lightning or acid either, it's the magical healing, also a field in necromancy. From the wikipedia article of Nercomancy-

In popular culture

...

Games

...

In some editions of Dungeons & Dragons, wizards can specialize in the school of necromancy, and clerics can select death as their sphere or domain. Both accordingly gain access to spells that not only focus on death, decay, and the undead, but also various forms of life force manipulation, enabling them to heal or cause injury, cure or inflict disease, and perform resurrection.

And the link will show that as Energy(esotericism) which links it to Magic(paranormal).

 

Hmm. Get it now ?

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I'm not going to get into a debate about being 'right' about the definition of 'magic energy' in one of a thousand make believe games. There is no right or wrong answer, there is only what makes sense in the context of this game or that mod. So no, I guess I don't "get it now."

 

Moving on...

 

I think I have a pretty simple idea for Conjurers.

 

The idea is to add an effect to every Conjuration spell, on a ~1-second delay, that uses an .EFF to target creatures with gender = summoned, which gives them bonuses to thac0/AC/hp/saves/whatever. There - improved summons in about four lines of Weidu! (I like simple but effective solutions.) I'd have to edit scrolls to give Conjurers the better version, but that's easy enough.

 

Thoughts?

 

If that sounds good for conjurers, I'm settled on something like the following:

 

- Conjurers: buffed summons.

- Pyromancers (née invokers): ~20% extra damage from fire/electricity spells, and maybe access to some divine spells like Flame Strike.

- Shadowmancers (née illusionists): permanent Non-detection. What else?

- Seers (née Diviners): immunity to backstab, innate Contingency from level 1.

- Transmuters: bonus to saves vs. petrification/polymorph, some healing spells, maybe brewing potions.

- Enchanters: Charm spells have tougher saves, immunity to Charm, maybe crafting wands.

- Necromancers: sole access to necromancy spells, which will be buffed.

 

So that just leaves Abjurers. What to do about Abjurers? For purposes of this mod they are focused on protection spells - I've moved metamagic and dispels into a Universal school. (Though, since there are no more opposition schools, I guess there's no more need to do that...) So, what would make Abjurers better at protection magic...?

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I always thought some of the best ways to strengthen specialists is to do what they did in AD&D: implement spells restricted to that one specialist (there are quite a few such spells in the sourcebooks), and implement spells that have not been implemented in the BG series. A lot of the spell schools (am thinking Illusion, Enchantment, Necromancy) have a lackluster implementation in either IE game, while others are exceedingly difficult or impossible to implement (am thinking Alteration, Divination) they way they were intended to work in PnP. Divination in particular is hard to translate to the combat-intensive nature of BG2, while Alteration deals with a lot of physics and environment-changing effects that are impossible to implement in any IE game. Of course if you are creative modder, you can always invent nice solutions and make justifications.

 

I would say that the rock-paper-scissors system in Abjuration has the most faithful implementation, and SCS makes good use of it. The schools of conjuration and invocation are relatively straightforward, as they "only" summon critters and deal damage.

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So, what would make Abjurers better at protection magic...?

Being able to cast protective magics normally reserved to "target=self" to other people. And Stoneskin. Really.
I like that a lot because it breaks way out of the standard model of kit abilities, and it fits really well with the theme of the kit. But, we need to consider how it would affect the game. Functionally, it would mean that if you bring an Abjurer along, your tank(s) will be buffed with Stoneskin and/or PfMW etc. in every major battle. I can't tell if that would make the playthrough interesting and cool, or if it's just way too much. Would SCS handle it intelligently? It might create an interesting dynamic where enemy mages have to choose between dispelling your wizard's spell protections, and thus letting your warrior run rampant, vs. debugging your warrior, and thus letting your wizard have a couple free rounds to cast spells.

 

A technical note on Conjurers: I suppose I wouldn't even really need to double up the summoning spells. I could add an effect to every summons, which uses "Cast Spell" on the caster and uses an .eff to only trigger for conjurers; that 2nd spell would in turn add combat buffs to all allies within sight range, using .effs in turn to only affect gender = summoned. That knocks the whole thing down to about 3 lines of Weidu, plus the creation of a single secondary spell.

 

Should work, right?

 

Also, maybe if SRv4 is installed, Seers could at some point (12th-15th level) get permanent Detect Invisibility, being innately able to target Improved Invisible targets with spells...

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I could add an effect to every summons, which uses "Cast Spell" on the caster and uses an .eff to only trigger for conjurers; that 2nd spell would in turn add combat buffs to all allies within sight range, using .effs in turn to only affect gender = summoned. That knocks the whole thing down to about 3 lines of Weidu, plus the creation of a single secondary spell.

There's a series of unfortunate events, nad the summon cap is removed(via setting the summoned creatures to have gender identifier to be 20 instead of 6) and then this effect could affects none. Make sure to apply the effect to them as well, especially if you intent the mod to be installed after the d0tweaks.

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So, what would make Abjurers better at protection magic...?

Being able to cast protective magics normally reserved to "target=self" to other people. And Stoneskin. Really.
I like that a lot because it breaks way out of the standard model of kit abilities, and it fits really well with the theme of the kit. But, we need to consider how it would affect the game. Functionally, it would mean that if you bring an Abjurer along, your tank(s) will be buffed with Stoneskin and/or PfMW etc. in every major battle. I can't tell if that would make the playthrough interesting and cool, or if it's just way too much. Would SCS handle it intelligently? It might create an interesting dynamic where enemy mages have to choose between dispelling your wizard's spell protections, and thus letting your warrior run rampant, vs. debugging your warrior, and thus letting your wizard have a couple free rounds to cast spells.

I was against things such as Stoneskin/Ironskin etc. being castable on others as well. The more I think about it, I actually like it. It's per PnP, yey!

The thing is, if you wanna spend a 4th/6th level slot (especially PFMW with it's 4 round duration. It's expensive...) on a fighter who has zero options in avoiding Remove magic, bless you.

Second, it's nothing a dual/multi fighter-mage can't do anyway, with added benefits of SI:Abjuration (or Dispel Screen in SR)/Spell Shield/Deflection/Trap/whatever.

SCS won't care if it's fighter or a mage getting breached - for as long as it's detectable, it's will have a rather high priority in being removed.

Finally, you might get someone to actually play an Abjurer. That kit kind of blows, 2nd only to Diviners with their Conjuration ban.

Oh, and I would definitely make Stoneskin/Ironskin "skin count" shorter. (max 6 or 8)

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Well one of my planned spell tweaks, as I've mentioned elsewhere, is to change Mantle into Improved Stoneskin - actually, to rename druids' Ironskin to Stoneskin, and call the improved mage spell "Ironskin." So SS at 4th level would have fewer skins and shorter duration, and IS at 6th/7th level will have more skins and a longer duration (plus a short-term invulnerability to fire/lightning damage).

 

So maybe SS would be 2 skins + 1 per 3 levels, maxing at 8; and Ironskin would be something like 3 skins + 1 per 2 levels, maxing at 12.

 

Are they really touch spells in PnP? That makes me feel better about doing this for Abjurers.

 

PfMW is more problematic - I mean, it's problematic in every way and needs to die, but I. this case I mean to be able to cast it on warriors. There are plenty of enemies who can't breach... your tank would be the ultimate vampire-killer, for instance, immune to level drain. On the other hand, dropping its duration to 4-5 rounds (as SR does, I think) and moving it to 7th level (as I plan to do) will help balance that.

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