Store Revisions

[Ardanis]

Since Demi seems to be steadily making his way towards the relesase of v3, I thought I'd post mine part, because there're few things I'm unsure about.

 

 

Store Revisions

Core component, rewrites from the scratch all available SoA & ToB stores, except mod-added. Each merchant is much more unique as far as their assortiment goes. About a dozen or two of items are moved from or into stores as well.

 

Possible additions:

1) Optional subcomponent to randomize the amount of scrolls, potions and ammo, somewhere within 50%-200% range. If a low quality store has a single powerful potion (high level scroll, etc.) it will not be randomized.

2) Optional subcomponent to randomize the assortiment of fences and/or innkeepers. According to the amount and quality input values, they will receive an auto-generated list of goods, featuring potions, scrolls, ammo and generic magical armors and weapons.

 

 

Additional Item Re-Allocation

Another core component, which is different from the first in that it doesn't touch a single store, only creatures and area containers.

 

Includes three parts:

- Scroll re-assignment, which moves moves scroll loot around, removing it from early-on random encounter ambushes that almost have a sign on their forehead 'we were put here by designers, so that starting parties may have an easy access to magic', assigning scrolls to enemy wizards (Gaius, Sorcerous Amon, etc.) who had NONE, De'Arnise Keep library, etc., all the way trying to maintain the consistency with school speciality and curcumstances (Xzar gets necro scrolls, Kalah - illusion, Cowled Wizards - abjuration/divination, slaver wizards - disabling spells, De'Arnise - what Nalia has in her spellbook, etc.).

- Potion re-assignment, except it primarily reduces those cart loads of healing stocks in every dungeon.

- Item re-allocation, moves around pieces of equipment.

 

Possible additions:

1) Optional subcomponent Revised Creatures, as per popular demand over here. I'll post again when I have it sorted out.

 

As far as my current playthrough demonstrates, there're yet many placements of scrolls/potions/ammo that could/should be attended to make a better sense.

Something should also be done with random treasure tables, otherwise we're got a couple of 7-9 level scrolls after clearing out Copper Coronet, and situation only grows worse afterwards. Fortunately, Miloch has somewhat fixed it within Aurora's Shoes and Boots, so it can be left alone for now.

 

 

Reduced Amount of Ammo Loot

As it says, really. It decreases the amount of ammo in stacks located in area containers. This is similar to the SCS component, which it is compatible and cumulative with.

 

Revised Temple Services

All temples now offer various spells at various prices. In theory. On pratice, it means I'll always go to Lathander temple to cure Energy Drain and to Ilmater to heal wounded chars. And spell selection leaves to desire better.

 

Possible additions:

1) Add long-lasting buffs, although it is mainly relevant only with Spell Revisions installed.

2) Acrane stores may also provide buffs, but short of Pro Fire/Acid/Energy/etc. they've got basically nothing. Otoh, if SR is not installed, then it may add a flavour.

3) More powerful priests may cast at higher level (at higher price), although it means duplicating SPLs due to engine limitaion.

 

Standardized Order of Wares in Stores

It merely re-arranges items in stores - weapons go first, then armor, then expendable materails.

 

 

Possible new components

1) Increased Cost of Cromwell's and Cespenar's Work

2) Change Buying/Selling Mark-ups in Stores, although it is already incorporated into Aurora mod, so is not necessary.

3) Something else? What?

 

Also, there're two types of items that may be included in two core components - Tomes/Manuals and potion/ammo bags. The latter is handled by many other mods, but they don't know StR changes the assortiment, so their additions may end up in un-appropriate places.

 

BG2Tweakpack allows for bottomless bags and unlimited stacking, should more reasonable versions of those be added?

[Mike1072]

1) Optional subcomponent to randomize the amount of scrolls, potions and ammo, somewhere within 50%-200% range. If a low quality store has a single powerful potion (high level scroll, etc.) it will not be randomized.

This one really doesn't seem like it'd add much to the game.

 

2) Optional subcomponent to randomize the assortiment of fences and/or innkeepers. According to the amount and quality input values, they will receive an auto-generated list of goods, featuring potions, scrolls, ammo and generic magical armors and weapons.

These are generic stores that aren't customised in the main Store Revisions component? I'm not keen about them being re-randomised each time... if you come up with permanent changes for these stores that seem worthwhile, they could go in the main Store Revisions component.

 

- Item re-allocation, moves around pieces of equipment.

This might best go in the main Store Revisions component, since it's near guaranteed that some pieces of equipment are being moved to/from stores from/to creatures and areas.

 

1) Optional subcomponent Revised Creatures, as per popular demand over here. I'll post again when I have it sorted out.

If you just need to give a creature proficiency points in a new weapon they've been given, that could be done along with the Item Reallocation. However, a proper treatment of what was discussed (overhaul of creature stats, new combat potions to buff with, even positioning and number of creatures in certain fights) would really be better off somewhere other than in IR.

 

Reduced Amount of Ammo Loot

As it says, really. It decreases the amount of ammo in stacks located in area containers. This is similar to the SCS component, which it is compatible and cumulative with.

Is this really needed? You could probably appeal to DavidW to change the SCS component if it's not comprehensive enough.

 

Standardized Order of Wares in Stores

It merely re-arranges items in stores - weapons go first, then armor, then expendable materails.

I think this should be included in the main Store Revisions component.

 

1) Increased Cost of Cromwell's and Cespenar's Work

Skip looking at this until later when we add new upgrades for items.

 

BG2Tweakpack allows for bottomless bags and unlimited stacking, should more reasonable versions of those be added?

I think there's enough options from mods already for players to get whatever behaviour they want.

[Ardanis]

This one really doesn't seem like it'd add much to the game.

I consider it a cosmetical change rather than affecting the game balance.

 

These are generic stores that aren't customised in the main Store Revisions component? I'm not keen about them being re-randomised each time... if you come up with permanent changes for these stores that seem worthwhile, they could go in the main Store Revisions component.

They're already customized and within core component. None of them have any unique artifact, and everything they offer can be found in 'official' shops, so once again it's cosmetics.

 

If you just need to give a creature proficiency points in a new weapon they've been given, that could be done along with the Item Reallocation. However, a proper treatment of what was discussed (overhaul of creature stats, new combat potions to buff with, even positioning and number of creatures in certain fights) would really be better off somewhere other than in IR.

Proficiency points and maybe kit/stats adjustments. As for it not belonging here, I can't agree more indeed. The only reason I brought it up is because it's connected to item replacements.

 

Is this really needed? You could probably appeal to DavidW to change the SCS component if it's not comprehensive enough.

You might be right.

 

I think this should be included in the main Store Revisions component.

To take into account later-added mod stores. That mainly depends on the install order, if StR goes late then sure it can be merged.

 

Skip looking at this until later when we add new upgrades for items.

For real!? I've playing around with idea of balanced IU myself. Great then

 

I think there's enough options from mods already for players to get whatever behaviour they want.

IIRC they're all either bottomless or 999. I was talking about values of 35-50 for gem bags/scroll cases and 80 for ammo stacks.

[Mike1072]

This one really doesn't seem like it'd add much to the game.

I consider it a cosmetical change rather than affecting the game balance.

 

These are generic stores that aren't customised in the main Store Revisions component? I'm not keen about them being re-randomised each time... if you come up with permanent changes for these stores that seem worthwhile, they could go in the main Store Revisions component.

They're already customized and within core component. None of them have any unique artifact, and everything they offer can be found in 'official' shops, so once again it's cosmetics.

Randomising goes against the rest of what we're doing with this component. Since the main stores are not randomised, installing the generic store randomiser would lead to inconsistencies. And yes, the impact these have on the game is minor... so minor that there wouldn't really be a point to installing them.

 

I think there's enough options from mods already for players to get whatever behaviour they want.

IIRC they're all either bottomless or 999. I was talking about values of 35-50 for gem bags/scroll cases and 80 for ammo stacks.

You can set custom values for bags at least with aTweaks. We can easily get carried away with adding components to the mod, so I'm doing my best to weed out anything that's too minor or available elsewhere, and merge everything that should be merged.

 

Skip looking at this until later when we add new upgrades for items.

For real!? I've playing around with idea of balanced IU myself. Great then

Yes... eventually.

[yarpen]

Add long-lasting buffs, although it is mainly relevant only with Spell Revisions installed.

What about some special versions of spells called Rituals which grants to you spell effects for let's say whole day. It can cost a lot, but you'll get Protection from Fire for whole day. But you need to go to Temple. That'd make things more interesting - because with generic (even Spell Revision) spells it's only eye-candy add-on without practical usefullness.

 

Also my little idea is to randomise stores after coming back from Underdark. Things should change. Player should have more possibility of seeing that he spend a lot of time chasing Irenicus than additional Ribald's stock.

 

If you're going to implement all of the changes we were talking about earlier (potions/scrolls as something expensive in Amn, additional illegal but cheaper sources), it'd be totally awesome.

[Ardanis]

Randomising goes against the rest of what we're doing with this component. Since the main stores are not randomised, installing the generic store randomiser would lead to inconsistencies. And yes, the impact these have on the game is minor... so minor that there wouldn't really be a point to installing them.

I'm not following you. How does randomisation contradict the rest? Or, what exactly we're doing here with this comp?

 

I see no more inconsistency than game using RND***.2DA for generic loot, while keeping equipment nailed. And, while main stores may not have catalogs listing they goods distributed throughout the city, it is logical to assume they do try to maintain the same selection over time passing. Whereas innkeepers and fences sell whatever they've happened to obtain from drunkards and such. It only improves the immersion imo.

 

And the other reason is what Yarpen has said about cheap illegal sources. Illegal sort of suggests being hard to find, but everyone knows by now where to look for specific hooded persons at night. If they have random selection, it means at least to check several ones, or even having to give up and walk in Promenade, where everything is present but costs a bit more (or twice as much, it ceratin cases).

 

We can easily get carried away with adding components to the mod, so I'm doing my best to weed out anything that's too minor or available elsewhere, and merge everything that should be merged.

Well, rather than increasing needlessly the package size, we can make it separate. I in fact considered gathering everything store-related in one place, so there'll be no need to stitch together different componoents from different mods. Revisions family's growing

 

Demi said he wanted the core component to be present in IR, since it did what IR already tried to do by itself. I see nothing wrong if 2-3 components can be found in multiple mods, it's happening often anyway.

 

Opinions?

[yarpen]

You can always change their placement. Taking them off the streets or limiting hours when they're present (guy from Slums who appers for 1 hour or two). Good example of fence like this is Roger, who's placed at Sewers - not so calm and easy to reach place. Make them a sort of gratitude for players who are exploring Athkatla. Also Shadow Thieves have one, but he can have semi-cheap loot (y'know, he's paying to Shadow Thieves instead of government). Also, limiting their stock - they don't need to have thousands of scrolls, potions etc. They just need to have few of those, but cheaper than in standard shops.

 

And you need to move this woman from Adventurer's Mart somewhere else. What about location ... dunno. What about making her to appear randomly in one of best Athkatlan taverns?

[Mike1072]

Randomising goes against the rest of what we're doing with this component. Since the main stores are not randomised, installing the generic store randomiser would lead to inconsistencies. And yes, the impact these have on the game is minor... so minor that there wouldn't really be a point to installing them.

I'm not following you. How does randomisation contradict the rest? Or, what exactly we're doing here with this comp?

Each of the other items are moved to a particular location because it would be a better/cooler/more logical place to find them. These stores have already been adjusted in the main component to fit these reasons, but when a randomising component comes along, it undoes that planning.

 

I see no more inconsistency than game using RND***.2DA for generic loot, while keeping equipment nailed. And, while main stores may not have catalogs listing they goods distributed throughout the city, it is logical to assume they do try to maintain the same selection over time passing. Whereas innkeepers and fences sell whatever they've happened to obtain from drunkards and such. It only improves the immersion imo.

I don't really think it makes sense that some merchants actually sell and replace their merchandise, and others just hold on to everything, waiting for player characters to come by. If this component affected all stores, it would be internally consistent, but then it would be incompatible with the main component's purposeful placement of items.

 

We can easily get carried away with adding components to the mod, so I'm doing my best to weed out anything that's too minor or available elsewhere, and merge everything that should be merged.

Well, rather than increasing needlessly the package size, we can make it separate. I in fact considered gathering everything store-related in one place, so there'll be no need to stitch together different componoents from different mods. Revisions family's growing

 

Demi said he wanted the core component to be present in IR, since it did what IR already tried to do by itself. I see nothing wrong if 2-3 components can be found in multiple mods, it's happening often anyway.

 

Opinions?

You're free to add these components to any separate mods you like. I think these components are fine as tweaks, but some are too small to be added as new components in an already-large mod.

[Dakk]

We can easily get carried away with adding components to the mod, so I'm doing my best to weed out anything that's too minor or available elsewhere, and merge everything that should be merged.

Well, rather than increasing needlessly the package size, we can make it separate. I in fact considered gathering everything store-related in one place, so there'll be no need to stitch together different componoents from different mods. Revisions family's growing

 

Demi said he wanted the core component to be present in IR, since it did what IR already tried to do by itself. I see nothing wrong if 2-3 components can be found in multiple mods, it's happening often anyway.

 

Opinions?

My firm opinion is that just because this or that store- or item-related component exist in random (no offence intended) other mods, IR could and should still have duplicate or almost-the-same components. I think IR (with CR) together with SR and KR should be self-contained in that regard. It seems to me that has been the philosophy so far, keep it up!

 

EDIT: I agree with Mike somewhat concerning randomising, but I'm pretty confident I won't install randomising components anyway... The dedicated ("This would go better here") placement is what really floats my boat.

[Demivrgvs]

I more or less agree with Mike on everything.

 

Item Randomizations

As Mike and Dakk I'm quite against randomization components, for the same reason Mike explained. Our aim is actually the opposite: to allocate items in the places that most suit them (to fit their background, to maximize their use by opponents, to balance the game, etc).

 

 

Store Revision and Items re-allocation

I actually consider these two components the very same one just like Mike. It might need a better name than "Store Revision" to represent what it does though, as its scope is quite bigger.

 

'Standardized order in wares' surely is part of it too.

 

 

Cromwell & Cespenar

Skip looking at this until later when we add new upgrades for items.

For real!? I've playing around with idea of balanced IU myself. Great then

Yep, I indeed had plans for this. At least NPC equipment really needs a similar component imo to make sure our beloved NPCs can continue to use their unique items. Don't hold your breath though, because I'm leving it for IR V4.

 

 

Creature Revisions

As Mike says, a "heavy" revision of cre files shouldn't belong to IR. That being said, we might indeed work together to build a first version of CR starting with a really small scope (e.g. fixing only boss-like creatures to make sure they have proper stats, proficiencies, abilities, resistances, and equipment). That shouldn't take too long, whereas a full scale CR (e.g. affecting all in-game creatures) should really wait its time, because KR V1 and perhaps even SR V4 take precedence.

[Dakk]

Creature Revisions

As Mike says, a "heavy" revision of cre files shouldn't belong to IR. That being said, we might indeed work together to build a first version of CR starting with a really small scope (e.g. fixing only boss-like creatures to make sure they have proper stats, proficiencies, abilities, resistances, and equipment). That shouldn't take too long, whereas a full scale CR (e.g. affecting all in-game creatures) should really wait its time, because KR V1 and perhaps even SR V4 take precedence.

A "smallish" separate CR would, if it's not too work-intensive, be really great. And perfect priorities; I'm drooling with anticipation for KR

[Jarno Mikkola]

I know this goes totally off the topic, sorry, but I have to ask...

Creature Revisions

What would you put in that's not already covered in the SCS'es? Mods that normal player would be assumed to use when the IR is used... I would like to see less compatibility conflicts... that this kinda would indicate there to still be.

[Ardanis]

What would you put in that's not already covered in the SCS'es?

As Demi said - proper stats, proficiencies, abilities, resistances, and equipment.

For example, the Tazok fight in Windspear dungeon. Atm he only boasts 20 STR and 190 hp, despite being a 18th level character. If he's given a barbarian kit and Orc Leather armor, he has 30% physical resistance. Hopefully, David will teach AI to use IR's revised poitons, if so then an Absorbtion one will raise it to formidable 50%. And of course, giving him a slightly better (slightly) weapon, proper proficiency and the innate Rage will ensure he can inflict heavy damage.

[Demivrgvs]

Creature Revisions

What would you put in that's not already covered in the SCS'es? Mods that normal player would be assumed to use when the IR is used... I would like to see less compatibility conflicts... that this kinda would indicate there to still be.

First of all, have you actually read that topic? Where the hell do you see compatibility conflicts between Revisions mods and SCS?!

 

That being said, as both I and Ardanis said there are quite a lot of things SCS doesn't cover, especially for non-spellcasters: high lvl fighters with no grandmastery, almost no kits are used (e.g. no Wizard Slayers, no Barbarians and Berserkers, ...), tons of enemies with silly stats, many opponents with extremely sub-optimal equipment, etc.

[Ardanis]

there are quite a lot of things SCS doesn't cover, especially for non-spellcasters: high lvl fighters with no grandmastery, almost no kits are used (e.g. no Wizard Slayers, no Barbarians and Berserkers, ...), tons of enemies with silly stats, many opponents with extremely sub-optimal equipment, etc.

Aye. Looking for a good place to move an item to can result in groundshaknig discoveries sometimes. Like drow weaponmaster wielding two swords with no single point in two weapon style