BG: Canon NPCs vs. Mod NPCs

[Conners]

Just a fun thread. Comparing the original NPCs in Baldur's Gate (1 and 2) to the ones which can be added via mods, which side would win your favour?

 

Note that when I say the "original" BG Companions, I mean including any improved interactions/romance mods they have (otherwise, the BG1 NPCs would be at a loss).

 

Also, in general, which are your favourite companions between mods and canon? For any reason. "Because they're a Lich," "Because their stats are so powerful," "Because I can feel an emotional attachment with that character," "Because all the others suck! In my humble opinion".

 

 

Personally, I've yet to try any mods which add NPCs. If there are some good ones I see here, I may add and try them.

[DeathAngel]

Out of cannon npcs I'd have to say my favorites are definitely Kivan, Jahiera, Imoen, Xan, Edwin, and Soluafien. With Kivan and Xan probably being tied for first. I haven't played many npc mods for BG1 except for Gavin which was wonderfully written but his character was just not my type. As for BG2 npcs I've played a fair amount. My favorite would be Tsujatha. Though other good ones are Amber, Kelsey, Yaswena (I know I spelled that wrong )

 

The reason those six are my favorite is because well Jahiera doesn't take any crap from anyone and will stand up for what she believes as well as her loved ones and I respect that. Sure she can't get a little over motherly sometimes and that is annoying but over all I thinks she's a good character. The fact that she has faults makes her and the others more real.

 

As for Kivan well I am very much the type of female who is attracted to the "tortured soul" type as I call it and they don't really get much better (or worse depending on your view) than Kivan. (unless you count Tsujatha but that's for later in mods) I just feel so bad for him and want to help him.

 

Imoen is just like the almost perfect little sister always there for you even if you sometimes do wish she and her ridiculously bubbly self would go away. lol.

 

Why I like Xan is probably akin to the same reason I like Kivan. He's very sweet most of the time and you can tell how sad he is the rest of the time. There's a darkness to him that I don't think ever fully goes away. It's sad and once again I wish to help him.

 

The same goes for Solaufein and probably Edwin too to a lesser extent.

 

The differences are that Edwin is hilariously pompous. Thinks he's the best thing in the world the epitome of masculinity but he does it in such a cute funny way you can't help but like him because you later find out (in the romance) that he's not as self assured as he acts and it's rather sweet and adorable.

 

Where as Solaufein is sweet, poetic, and brooding. He's also deep. He really brings to mind the phrase "Still waters run deep." Though I do hate how incomplete the mod feels.

 

My favorite Mod is defiantly Tsujatha because I feel like I can really relate to him and he's just so kind. It really warms the heart and the fact that he's a ridiculously bad ass wizard doesn't hurt either lol.

 

In conclusion I don't know which side would my favor because I'm torn between Kivan and Tsujatha as my absolute favs.

 

Well there you go that's what I think.

 

-End of Ramble-

[Jarno Mikkola]

Yaswena (I know I spelled that wrong )

That would be Yasraena ...

 

Well, I like the original BG2 chars... why? Cause I haven't really got around to try the mod chars, no one has tried all...

I mostly like Aerie, because her class is just something totally IMBA. ... and I prefer to use the original NPCs as they have most dialogs, as the mod NPCs have them as automatic dialog partners and if I wish, I can make the original NPCs to be what class I like with the Level1NPCs mod...

[DeathAngel]

I had no idea about this list thanks for the heads up and yes your right it is Yasraena. I just couldn't remember how to spell it. I can be quite the horrible speller sometimes.

[the bigg]

I'm going to post a meta-question and ask: am I the only one who avoids posting a list of preferred NPC mods because he doesn't want to play favorite with its authors?

 

Re: the topic itself, the only NPC I have consistently been using in my 20+ playthroughs was Imoen - both because she's the only NPC found in a plece that makes you feel bad for not rescuing her, and because she's an immensely useful NPC. I've enjoyed a number of other NPCs (both mod and vanilla), but I don't want to spend a couple of hours sorting them into a top-ten or somesuch.

[berelinde]

I'm going to post a meta-question and ask: am I the only one who avoids posting a list of preferred NPC mods because he doesn't want to play favorite with its authors?

In a perfect world, both players and modders would understand that modders are not their NPCs, and that an opinion regarding one is no indicator of an opinion regarding the other. Unfortunately for everyone involved, it isn't a perfect world.

 

Edit: As for the OP's question, I can't really answer. The only time I really play is to test mods, and then, I'm not exactly sampling mods, apart from the one I'm testing. If I didn't like the idea of a specific NPC, I wouldn't have written it, but is it better than BioWare? No. It was never intended to be.

[Ardanis]

I'm going to post a meta-question and ask: am I the only one who avoids posting a list of preferred NPC mods because he doesn't want to play favorite with its authors?

In a nutshell, I consider those who take personal offense when their characters aren't liked to be not worth my attention. Not literally, sure, but you get the general idea.

 

That said, I don't really have any favorite list either. The only NPC I always take is Sarevok, as PC's bro and melee powerhouse. And Imoen/Viconia for good/evil party respectively. Anyone else is more a matter of combat prowess, where everyone is equal, given you can play them right.

 

Mod NPCs. I vaguely - very so, it's been 4 years ago - recall liking Tashia. Xulaye blends almost perfectly into game, refine several aspects and it's impossible to tell she's a mod. Atm I play Saerileth, she has a couple of jaw-dropping moments, but overall is written fine. I wouldn't try to judge other mods I've played, either I don't remember them well or just don't feel like wasting time typing.

[the bigg]

In a nutshell, I consider those who take personal offense when their characters aren't liked to be not worth my attention. Not literally, sure, but you get the general idea.

I hope that everybody here is mature enough not to be offended that their characters aren't liked. However, they might feel, I don't know, slightly sad if I were to mention thirty mod NPCs I liked and I didn't list their own - especially if I actually liked the NPC (and maybe helped beta test or something) and then accidentally forgot about adding him/her to the list. I do know I used to feel a warm fuzzy feeling the first times I was reading a weidu.log and saw my mods there (back then, people installed mods consciously and I didn't yet notice that some of my mods sucked pigeon cock).

 

 

 

In conclusion, the only NPCs worthy of your time are Azrael, Alassa and Goo.

[Ipsy]

I've played a fairly large number of NPC mods, but the original cast is still my favorite. I do tend to like interpretations of BG1 characters though, particularly Xan and Angelo. I don't know what it is, but mod NPCs rarely seem up to the standard of the canon characters. The only ones I've much liked are those who don't try to steal the show from the PC, either by Sue/Stu-ness or angst. Tsujatha, Yasraena, and Saerilith were especially guilty of this.

 

I just wish Xulaye was voiced...then she'd be perfect. As it is, she's well-written and makes Ust Natha considerably less boring. The only characters that I almost always have are Yoshimo, Cernd, and Imoen. Not sure why I like those three, but there you have it.

[Domi]

It's a tough call, because I generally come to like a charcater I write for. Like Faldon, I didn't even remember her being in BG1, and she ended up one of my all-times fav characters.

 

In general, I prefer the characters with a strong 'core' personality and distinctive speech patterns, rather than the charcaters that change 15 different ways, and try to please every PC that comes along. I like the characters to be inconvenient at times, and at odds with the PC. One of the reasons I prefered BG1 over BG2 was that you were not afraid to 'lose' a character you didn't like. It didn't leave you in a bind.

 

Now, let me try to list all time favorite characters (and sorry, they are not limited to BG)

 

Kivan -still special place in my heart, it's like first love. He was single-handedly responcible on hooking me up on PC gaming. 'Nough said.

Valygar - when Kivan is not available, Val is more than just the second best.

Mazzy - That gal has what it takes. And to spare. I love her by the same reason a lot of people like Minsc: she kicks a major butt!

Faldorn - we share views on Jaheira

Zu - is distilled coolness in one hot package

Henpecked H - as far as comic relief goes, you can't do better than him

Bishop - so refreshing to have even a hint of a romance that is different

Qara - she is a spot-on charcater. She is done right. She rubs a lot of people the wrong way, but that's what not compromising gets you as a writer. Thumbs up.

Kaelyn - magnificent. And that one word summs her up.

 

Kelsey would be my favorite modded NPC, because he was the break-through, and really the very first playable modded NPC. He didn't try to steal the show, do it all and/or terrorise the player into power-playing like the early Solaufein did. He was also the very first NPC made to please a female player.

[Ardanis]

Bishop - so refreshing to have even a hint of a romance that is different

Qara - she is a spot-on charcater. She is done right. She rubs a lot of people the wrong way, but that's what not compromising gets you as a writer. Thumbs up.

Kaelyn - magnificent. And that one word summs her up.

These aren't exactly BG1&2, are they? I do agree on all three though. Especially on Kaelyn, it's beyond mere words.

[jcompton]

However, they might feel, I don't know, slightly sad if I were to mention thirty mod NPCs I liked and I didn't list their own - especially if I actually liked the NPC (and maybe helped beta test or something) and then accidentally forgot about adding him/her to the list.

 

Admission: I feel slightly sad when I see a list of 30 mod NPCs which doesn't mention Kelsey. It's actually not so much about "Do people (still/ever) like playing with him?" as "Do people actually remember the classics? Or is it all about NPCs who are on the twitters and are vampire biebers these days?"

 

Give me those good, old-fashioned "I think Kelsey is a creepy pityfuck artist" broadsides any day over outright omission.

 

Reassurance: That doesn't mean the lists shouldn't be posted. Bleed a little for your art, blah blah.

 

Anyway, back to the original question of "which side would win your favor?", that's a hard ruling to make, especially since you don't really have to. Despite the fact that modders have more than exceeded Bioware's allocation of NPCs (at least for BG2), I still think the best player experience comes from mixing in a mod character or two with the Bioware cast, not from playing with a 100% mod squad.

 

In conclusion, the only NPCs worthy of your time are Azrael, Alassa and Goo.

 

Always safe advice.

 

If I didn't like the idea of a specific NPC, I wouldn't have written it, but is it better than BioWare? No. It was never intended to be.

 

Really? You've never aspired to do something better than the original game did? Maybe it's a "modding generational" thing... much of my work has addressed plugging holes.

[Jarno Mikkola]

If I didn't like the idea of a specific NPC, I wouldn't have written it, but is it better than BioWare? No. It was never intended to be.

Really? You've never aspired to do something better than the original game did? Maybe it's a "modding generational" thing... much of my work has addressed plugging holes.

Well, she wasn't(hopefully) payed to work on game, so the mod wasn't intended to be better than the BioWares original NPCs for everyone. And let's remember that better stats aren't better, just because they are better on one scale.

I do aspire to be far better than equal to a god, but... not yours.

[jcompton]

Well, she wasn't(hopefully) payed to work on game, so the mod wasn't intended to be better than the BioWares original NPCs for everyone. And let's remember that better stats aren't better, just because they are better on one scale.

I do aspire to be far better than equal to a god, but... not yours.

 

This leads to another question: just what criteria do we use to judge "better"?

 

For instance, if I may quote Domi about Kelsey:

 

He was also the very first NPC made to please a female player.

 

One could quibble about "female player" vs. "female player character" or, more broadly, "female characters in the gameworld" but this is fundamentally true. And, of course, it carries an easy and totally true defense of Bioware's concept of Anomen in particular and the BG2 character/romance design in general: the people signing the checks didn't tell the designers "Cater specifically to female players/characters", so they didn't.

 

I, on the other hand, had the time, motivation, and freedom to do so. Is one effort "better" than another if it had a different goal?

 

As I think about this, it is Ghareth, rather than Kelsey, who comes to mind as a very instructive example.

 

------------------ (no

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tag, Invision? For shame.)

 

Certainly in some cases it's fair to make a value judgment even if goals are different. Ghareth was expressly designed and implemented in a single day, so the scope and reach of the Ghareth character is obviously much more limited than that of Kelsey. But I still think it's fair to say that Kelsey is "better" than Ghareth, even though Ghareth couldn't possibly have hit the same target.

 

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Consider also that the designers had responsibilities that went beyond refining content for joinable NPCs, while, generally speaking, the better NPC mods have focused very much on a single character and that character's immediate storyline and personal quests. So is it fair for me to say "I think Kelsey is a better character than Cernd" when I had months to think about what Kelsey should be like, with no particular pressure to produce, and Cernd was just one of many design responsibilities of some BG2 writer fighting multiple deadlines? I think so.

 

Hell, I'll go farther than that--I think Ghareth is a better character than Cernd, and that was only about 14 hours of intensive effort from start to finish.

 

No, wait, I'll go even farther. I think at least one of the Bruce the Cockney Barfighters is a better character than Cernd.

 

Sometimes, even the pros simply drop the ball.

 

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Let's talk about some other memorable drops, like Imoen's post-Spellhold silence, save for major quest content. Most of us know the story by now--Imoen was originally supposed to bite it in the Irenicus dungeon but the designers decided to turn her into a motivating hook to drive the player to Spellhold. (Which was very effective, by the way.) So, as the story goes, there wasn't time to implement any new banters for her after her rescue.

 

Coming back to Ghareth again--I don't remember the precise count but there are quite a few banters in there and I actually think their content is overall of good quality. And I devised, coded, and voiced them in one frantic 14-hour day. If some junior designer couldn't cobble together a few banters over a long lunch hour when it became clear Imoen was staying in the game (and it certainly wasn't that hurried--her post-Spellhold content is voiced, meaning that keeping Imoen in wasn't an 11th hour choice) then certainly those of us who have written good Imoen banters in the span of a few hours have done a better job.

 

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All that said, particularly in SOA I do think that Bioware, despite all the distractions, lack of focus, ropey scripting (Jaheira), and whatnot, overall did a better job with certain character designs and moments than any of us have been able to do even with our 10 years(!) to consider the game, our superior(!) design tools, and so forth. They are to be praised, applauded, thanked, and all that good stuff. On the whole, they nailed it.

 

But sometimes, we've done better.

[DeathAngel]

Kivan -still special place in my heart, it's like first love. He was single-handedly responcible on hooking me up on PC gaming. 'Nough said.

Bishop - so refreshing to have even a hint of a romance that is different

 

Kelsey would be my favorite modded NPC, because he was the break-through, and really the very first playable modded NPC.

 

Kelsey is a good mod he was the first npc mod I ever played and made me get addicted to it and going back to find more.

 

As I said before I love Kivan. Him and Korin from the IWD NPC pack were actually the inspiration for a character in one of the books I'm writing.

 

As for Bishop he was my first game love. The one who got me hooked on Bioware games.