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Sword Coast Stratagems v31 Now Available


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#31 Luke

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Posted 25 September 2018 - 09:16 AM

Install whatever mod is imposing the 328 after SCS?

Will do.

 

Moreover, I noticed there are problems with other modified abilities too. For example, if you install RR Thief Kit Revisions, then all Assassins will correctly gain the new Poison Weapon ability (i.e., FL#TAS02.spl) BUT their script is not updated accordingly (they're basically scripted to use vanilla SPCL423.spl, so they never use Poison Weapon......)

 

I guess that from v32 on, SCS Assassins will use SPCL423.spl regardless of what abilities contain the corresponding CLAB table, right?


Edited by Luke, 25 September 2018 - 09:24 AM.


#32 DavidW

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Posted 25 September 2018 - 09:25 AM

It's not systematically possible to anticipate changes like this; AI scripting can't just adjust on the fly when spells and powers change.

In this particular case, do you know why RR changes the spell file name, rather than just changing the payload of the existing spell?

#33 Luke

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Posted 25 September 2018 - 09:35 AM

It's not systematically possible to anticipate changes like this; AI scripting can't just adjust on the fly when spells and powers change.

That's why I asked if from v32 on AI will use vanilla abilities (e.g., SPCL423.spl) regardless of the actual content of each CLAB table (sorry if you didn't miss the edit to my previous post......)

 

RR changed the spell file name because of this:

EE: Assassin's Poison Weapon does not mess with Blackguard's.


Edited by Luke, 25 September 2018 - 09:45 AM.


#34 DavidW

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Posted 25 September 2018 - 09:46 AM

I am reluctant to systematically move away from the CLAB files, partly on practical grounds (I have to hardcode things or ship vanilla copies of the CLAB files), partly on the grounds that I don't want to encourage modders to feel they can change resources with impunity without worrying about how it affects AI!


Where there are specific good reasons (and if Blackguard and Assassin are overloading SPCL423, that's a good reason) I can accommodate them specifically.

#35 Luke

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Posted 25 September 2018 - 09:59 AM

I am reluctant to systematically move away from the CLAB files, partly on practical grounds (I have to hardcode things or ship vanilla copies of the CLAB files), partly on the grounds that I don't want to encourage modders to feel they can change resources with impunity without worrying about how it affects AI!


Where there are specific good reasons (and if Blackguard and Assassin are overloading SPCL423, that's a good reason) I can accommodate them specifically.

I see, thanks for the clarification.

 

And yes, on EE games both Assassins and Blackguards use SPCL423, so that's why Wisp created a new SPL for his revised Assassin (to be honest, I'm the one who asked him to do so  :jump: .....)


Edited by Luke, 25 September 2018 - 10:02 AM.


#36 subtledoctor

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Posted 26 September 2018 - 07:31 AM

And yes, on EE games both Assassins and Blackguards use SPCL423, so that's why Wisp created a new SPL for his revised Assassin (to be honest, I'm the one who asked him to do so  :jump: .....)


Why?? This has evidently caused problems for everyone who uses both RR and SCS. And there's no particular timeline when people can expect the problem to be fixed, and I can't even see any tangible benefit to offset those problems. (Assassins and Blackguards are pretty clearly intended to use the same poison in their weapons.)

This is not the first time I've seen you advocate change for its own sake. But you really need to pause and think about the consequences. If it ain't broke, don't fix it!

Faiths & Powers: Spell spheres and kit pack for priests and paladins
Might & Guile: Tweaks and kits for warriors and rogues
Scales of Balance: Game tweaks and rule overhauls
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#37 Luke

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Posted 26 September 2018 - 08:05 AM

And yes, on EE games both Assassins and Blackguards use SPCL423, so that's why Wisp created a new SPL for his revised Assassin (to be honest, I'm the one who asked him to do so  :jump: .....)

Why?? This has evidently caused problems for everyone who uses both RR and SCS. And there's no particular timeline when people can expect the problem to be fixed, and I can't even see any tangible benefit to offset those problems. (Assassins and Blackguards are pretty clearly intended to use the same poison in their weapons.)

This is not the first time I've seen you advocate change for its own sake. But you really need to pause and think about the consequences. If it ain't broke, don't fix it!
What the hell......

I simply said that since RR targets Thieves (not Blackguards), then it should target Thieves (and so we have 2 different abilities, which is not a bad idea per se......) Sorry, I meant to break nothing.....

Also, for the record:
I think Wisp (the author of RR) knows better than me the plethora of mods out there, so he could have said: "Sorry, I can't do that because of SCS...."

Edited by Luke, 26 September 2018 - 08:54 AM.


#38 DavidW

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Posted 26 September 2018 - 09:40 AM

It's actually a nice example of why the IDS file ought to tell the truth. I reference SPCL423 via ASSASSIN_POISON. It's a little unfortunate if that IDS reference no longer points to the actual assassin-poison spell.

Still, it's not difficult to work around. I've put a commit on the master that probably fixes it. (And I'll fix it more elegantly in v32.)

#39 Valandil

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Posted 26 September 2018 - 10:25 AM

Just for the record, SCSv31 installation doesn't seem to run with CDTweaks v7.
As some components from SCS have been moved to CDTweaks, there is higly a chance that the problem be there.
Here is the problem. Maybe due to translation or other things? 

Attached Thumbnails

  • BG Error.JPG
  • BG Error 2.JPG

Edited by Valandil, 26 September 2018 - 12:24 PM.


#40 DavidW

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Posted 26 September 2018 - 05:23 PM

I don't know if it's the problem, but you're using an out-of-date version of WEIDU - version 240. You (probably) need 246 to manage CDTweaks v7, since I'm pretty sure the version of the SCS components I coded up uses v246 functionality.

At a guess, no-one updated the copy of WEIDU that SCS's hacky autoinstall function uses. See if you get the problem when you don't use the autoinstaller.

#41 subtledoctor

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Posted 26 September 2018 - 07:26 PM


I simply said that since RR targets Thieves (not Blackguards), then it should target Thieves (and so we have 2 different abilities, which is not a bad idea per se......) Sorry, I meant to break nothing.....

Right, but... why? Are Blackguards off-limits to RR for some reason?  Why shouldn't RR alter the Blackguard poison ability, since the explicit aim of the code is to alter the Poison Weapon ability?  You use prescriptive language - "should" - but there is nothing behind the prescription except a vague principle.  My only point is, modding, especially in this engine, cannot be ruled by simple principles, but instead boils down to nuts and bolts of how to wrangle the game files to do what we want them to do.  If you see a bug - if a spell doesn't work, or your game is crashing, or whatever - then yeah the modder should fix it.  But when you're talking about changes on principle that are not in response to actual problems, then the prescriptive sense is not called for.

 

Don't get me wrong, your reports around here are voluminous and informative - truly invaluable for improving mods.  This is just constructive criticism.  Sorry if it came off as offensive.


Faiths & Powers: Spell spheres and kit pack for priests and paladins
Might & Guile: Tweaks and kits for warriors and rogues
Scales of Balance: Game tweaks and rule overhauls
NPC_EE: More options for NPCs in BGEE, SoD, & BG2EE


#42 DavidW

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Posted 26 September 2018 - 09:25 PM

Actually I see where Luke is coming from here. It makes more logical sense to separate the effect rather than have one ability do double duty. What's balanced for one kit may not be balanced for a different kit attached to a completely different class. It's unfortunate that the Blackguard was coded that way in the first place.

As a matter of implementation, I would have changed the Blackguard filename instead, just because the Assassin version has been in the game much longer and there was more prospect of breaking things. But that's water under the bridge.

#43 subtledoctor

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Posted 27 September 2018 - 03:57 AM

Counterargument is, poison bought/made for putting on weapons is poison for putting on weapons. There's no reason each class should have exclusive access to its own unique brand.

E.g. I just coded up new druid shapeshifts, some of which can do poison damage; I was confronted with how to implement it. It can be incredibly variable; in addition to different values for initial damage and damage over time, there are facets introduced by RR and EE to e.g. limit damage stacking. I decided, whenever the player applies poison it should be consistent and expectable. So my animal forms all simply apply SPCL423. Well, now consistency is out the window - my animal forms are consistent with Blackguards' but inconsistent with Assassins.

Not saying one way is right and the other way is wrong. I'm just saying that "Assassin poison should be different" implies (falsely IMHO) that there is a right and a wrong way.

Faiths & Powers: Spell spheres and kit pack for priests and paladins
Might & Guile: Tweaks and kits for warriors and rogues
Scales of Balance: Game tweaks and rule overhauls
NPC_EE: More options for NPCs in BGEE, SoD, & BG2EE


#44 DavidW

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Posted 27 September 2018 - 08:54 AM

Counterargument is, poison bought/made for putting on weapons is poison for putting on weapons. There's no reason each class should have exclusive access to its own unique brand.

As a matter of in-game logic, that doesn't follow: the amount of poison damage depends on the level of the assassin/blackguard, so it can't just be that there's one standard sort.

But I was more making a programming point. The two powers are logically distinct even if one might decide to make them have the same game effect. Locking them to the same IDS entry and .spl file gets the logical structure wrong. If at some subsequent time the designers decided the blackguard power was overpowered, they then would have the ability to change it without either having to change the Assassin ability set, or go back through the AI scripting and reroute it.

#45 Wyrd

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Posted 27 September 2018 - 09:28 AM

In my game apparently some creature are not correctly using their weapon.itm, for example giant spider doesn't use spidgi1.itm when attacking and as a result it only deals 1d3 nonlethal damage with no poison.

I tested this with vanilla siege of dragonspear + SCS only. 

 

On a side note, it seems that SCS "nerf" the thac0 of some monsters (for example ettercap and wyvern) to give them a thac0 appropriate to their level (e.g. a level 7 monster has a max thac0 of 13). Is this intended behaviour?





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