Level1NPCs Discussion

[Azazello]

EDIT: The conversation about Blucher's NPCs being rebuilt is now continued in this topic.

 

 

Are there many left that haven't been, um, WeiDUized?

 

I'll start the list with one of my favorites - Blucher's alternate BG2 NPCs (lvl1npcs.zip). It allows certain NPCs to take on different kits. Here's what's from the Readme:

 

Imoen...
a: Thief
b: Assassin
c: Swashbuckler
d: Multi Thief/Mage
e: Wild Mage
f: Sorceress

Mazzy...
a: Paladin
b: Cavalier
c: Undead Hunter

Cernd...
a: Monk(!) & Monk w/original stats.
b: Totemic
c: Avenger
d: Druid

Nalia...
a: Conjurer
b: Illusionist
c: Wild Mage
d: Sorceress
e: Multi Fighter/Mage

Jaheira...
a: Cleric/Ranger

Minsc...
a: Barbarian (w/ & w/o Boo in the normal inventory slot)
b: Berserker (w/ & w/o Boo in the normal inventory slot)

Anomen...
a: Paladin
b: Cavalier

Valygar...
a: Wizard Slayer
b: Kensai

The mod changes the CREs for the characters, and specialty items that some NPCs have. No dialogs, etc. are changed.

 

My hope is that not only will this mod be assimilated, that also the options will expand to allowing any NPC (or any vanilla BG2 NPC) to take on any kit. Nalia as a straight Thief sounds harmless enough. But what about Minsc as Bard? Valygar as Jester? Mwahahaha, they called me mad!

 

Ahem.

 

I wonder, how difficult would it be to:

- take the vanilla CRE

- apply kit changes via patching

 

 

Anyway, that's my wishlist. Feel free to comment, and to offer any other mods.

[Gorilym]

Ah, it would be sweet if that mod was WeiDU-ified - I'd install it just to make Mazzy a Cavalier and Valygar a Wizard Slayer.

[cmorgan]

This sounds right up Macready's alley -- he managed to get a good non-damaging way of patching changing kits on the Tutu NPCs. Worth a gander at his code in EasyTutu NPC Kits, if someone has the time (I really don't want to distract him from EasyTutu, 'cause he keeps that puppy getting better and better ).

[the bigg]

Problem is, changing kit is usually easy (since the kit abilities aren't stored in the .cre, but rather generated at run-time). However, changin class (or levels) is much more difficult, since you need to change the spells memorized, which is kinda boring.

[Azazello]

Tutu always had the option to assign some kits to some (all?) NPCs. Was MacReady the developer of this concept, or did he find a way to do it via patching? (I'm assuming that Tutu used different CRE version depending on the NPC/kit desired.)

 

BTW, I *do* use it to make Mazzy a Cavalier and Valygar a WizardSlayer. And have not *not*-used this once I discovered the mod.

 

Problem is, changing kit is usually easy (since the kit abilities aren't stored in the .cre, but rather generated at run-time). However, changin class (or levels) is much more difficult, since you need to change the spells memorized, which is kinda boring.

It will take great effort to implement, to be sure, but well worth it. Count me in for whatever I can do to help.

 

In BG Fixpack, aren't the spell lists of some NPCs, like Edwin's and Nalia's, rebuilt afresh?

[cmorgan]

Macready was rebuilding Tutu with an updated installer and a centralized uniform override, so that most of the hard part of troubleshooting (or installing) Tutu v4 was set up, well, easily. I have not looked at the code for this component yet, because I am still learning enough to understand PATCH_IF statements, but he was attempting to match the Tutu kit changes that v4 had that were not options for players using EasyTutu because it was already converted by the installer. I know it was by patching, unlike many older materials which created a new .cre and dropped it in override.

 

Good catch on my logic, the bigg - I had not realized that these were class changes. Assuming I can get some final stuff done on BG1 NPC this week, count me in for helping (that is "assisting someone else ") with stupid boring stuff, assuming that it is teachable to me. It would be a good way for me to learn how classes, kits, and spell assignments in a .cre file work.

 

I did just remember that perhaps it might be a good idea to contact NiGHTMARE before going much farther porting this, though. Doesn't he have an NPC mod that these materials could be assimilated into? Not to do dishonor to another's hard work, but the state of IE coding has definitely advanced. Perhaps a more modern mod could grab the ideas and add them into the mix?

[NiGHTMARE]

I am still assumng that NiGHTMARE is around and reading this, becuase I thought he had a mod that changes NPCs, and I would really not be thrilled with building competition - I would rather community ghost-write additions and help with expanding existing mods, if possible.

 

I have a mod that changes the class of one NPC (Imoen the Bard), but I don't intend to do this for any of the others. Perhaps you're thinking of someone else?

 

Incidentally, this thread has shown that the coding of ItB could be improved somewhat (specifically using COPY_EXISTING_REGEXP instead of listing each .cre), so thanks guys .

[Azazello]

I was thinking about install order and came up with two thingies:

(1) This kind of mod should go first, as in right after the patch. This is baselining your NPCs, from which all other modifications would be applied.

(2) I would *hope* that modmakers could be encouraged to add a flag to their TP2 to check for the class/kit/whatever of NPCs before applying any changes to 'em.

 

Right now, I have to install Blucher's mod after BG2Fixpack. Makes sense.

 

As silly/horrifying/sacrilegious as it may sound, I fully believe EVERY vanilla NPC should be able to get EVERY vanilla class/kit. Let's do it, even if no one ever installs a particular version, just to achieve Proof of Concept. Blucher adjusted stats in order for certain kits to work. We will too.

 

Warning: I'm not a coder or a scripter, although I've been playing as one (see Catch Me If You Can) on the SHS forums. I would make the base CREs manually, 'cause that's the only way I know how to do it. If it can be done auto'ly, create away.

 

I only use Near Infinity, but could be tempted to try DLTCEP - if it makes creating the base CREs simpler than NI.

[Blucher]

You guys would be horrified at how I did it. I used a hex editor to change the starting XP for new characters to 0, made a level one version of the "NPC" that I wanted (using a notepad with pencilled in stats as reference), converted the CHR to CRE (using a version of NI with which that feature worked), and then used NI to manually set the values of the new CREs to match those of the old CREs. Somewhere along the line I wised up and used a script to set character sounds. Not a big deal or anything, just really freaking boring (as I'm sure you can imagine). How'd that saying go? "Work smarter, not harder?"

 

Azazello wrote me earlier, asking me to check out this thread. No need for any sort of "permission" from me to make a new Level 1 NPC Mod (or whatever), but you guys have it of course. I'd love to be more involved, but I'm far too preoccupied with RL stuff unfortunately.

 

Anyway, stay cool and happy modding.

[Azazello]

Blucher, thanks for the approval and the support. Hope we can make this something you'll be proud of.

 

Any ideas on creating the CRE more efficiently? That script for assigning sounds would be very useful.

[jester]

Mmmh I know it is heresy to say this in a thread about a technical thing, but why not make Gandalf a dwarven cleric or let Vader be the good guy for once. While Nalia is a bit of a stretch herself, I think most of the NPCs have exactly the kits they should have. Valygar as a jester means you have to rewrite his entire story.

 

'Well folks I always loathed magic, but use some minor cantrips which have been known to entertain the comrades when I was sent scouting for that army. The commanders decided that I should scout a log cabin first and then decided that they better get a stalker to do the job and locked me in here.Waddaya say, anyone here fancy a beer?'

 

PC:' Well, if you still can use the cool katana animation then you are in. Although I never needed a jester anyway.'

 

Abridged plea: If you want to change kit and story, why not change the stats and the picture while you are at it? Slap a new picture on top of that and you might even call it something entirely different.

[cmorgan]

Jester, from a role-playing standpoint I couldn't agree with you more... I got involved with BG1 NPC because Domi, Andyr, Jastey, Kulyok, et al wrote great stories that fit with the existing characters and even went so far as to avoid fixing some stuff because it would interfere with "developer intent" (an Andyr Watchword!). I admired the stories, their truth to the BG universe, and really want to see the mod get the attention it deserves to be able to "keep up with the Jones'" in terms of getting out there to the public with as much bug-fixing possible.

 

I would rarely or never actually play this NPC changing mod. I don't want Minsc as a Sorcerer, Nalia as a half-elven dual-classed Fighter/Priestess of Shar, or Dynaheir as a Paladin of Tyr. I might install Mazzy as a Paladin, but probably not...

 

That being said, I am ok with using me learning about how the "magic code" operates from a technical standpoint to further other folk's goals . We *could * get a logical approach, and make the determination about what is and isn't appropriate for characterization, but we may not/will not be able to please all of the folks.

 

 

EDIT: OK, I admit it. Swash-Immy not only rocks, berelide, but I forgot that I have not played a game for years that did not immediately change her to a swashbuckler -- I'm a hypocrite

[berelinde]

But Swash-Immy rocks!

[Gorilym]

Mmmh I know it is heresy to say this in a thread about a technical thing, but why not make Gandalf a dwarven cleric or let Vader be the good guy for once. While Nalia is a bit of a stretch herself, I think most of the NPCs have exactly the kits they should have. Valygar as a jester means you have to rewrite his entire story.

 

'Well folks I always loathed magic, but use some minor cantrips which have been known to entertain the comrades when I was sent scouting for that army. The commanders decided that I should scout a log cabin first and then decided that they better get a stalker to do the job and locked me in here.Waddaya say, anyone here fancy a beer?'

 

PC:' Well, if you still can use the cool katana animation then you are in. Although I never needed a jester anyway.'

 

Abridged plea: If you want to change kit and story, why not change the stats and the picture while you are at it? Slap a new picture on top of that and you might even call it something entirely different.

 

A jester Valygar is a bit too farfetched for me as well, but if Azazello (or anyone else) thinks he (Valygar, not Azazello ) would make a good jester, then why not? Are you worried about your job security, perhaps? It seems to me like you're using the most... extreme change suggested in the thread to ridicule the idea of any NPC kit change. To me Valygar is by no means a "natural" stalker - and as for the cabin, it's his property... Do you have to be a ranger to own / hide out in a cabin? With his background story he'd be just as "natural" a Wizard Slayer as a stalker. IMHO, of course.

 

edit: and as for the "Well folks I always loathed magic, but use some minor cantrips..." bit; as a stalker he already gets access to some wizard spells - which further suggests that he doesn't have "exactly the kit that he should have."

[Azazello]

Jester, when I played the game the first "50 times or so," I too was a purist in terms of NPCs. If I wanted to try different kits, then I assigned them to my PC.

 

Then I thought: don't wanna have Valygar as a Ranger no mo'; don't wanna have Minsc yellow-circle berserking on me no mo'; don't make sense for Cernd to be a werewolf, no mo'!

 

Wish I could remember the day I found Blucher's mod. Since then, game over. Er, you know what I mean. Imoen as Swashbuckler, Minsc as Berserker, Mazzy-Cavalier, Valygar-Wizardslayer, Cernd-Avenger. Have never gone back, will never go back to standard kits.

 

Another benefit for players is that they can try a variety of kits within one game, instead of being limited to just one assigned to the PC. If we can make it so that the newer modded kits could be assigned to NPCs...imagine the possibilities.

 

I will temper my ethusiasm and agree that I believe Blucher's original intent was not to give the NPC any possible kit. There should be some logic to it. For example, although Minsc is referenced as 'ranger' several times, so is my PC - with Multiple Strongholds installed. Can't it be possble that "ranger" is a general term? Ranger-Fighter-Berserker. Not too far off. So if the kit assignment can be kept not-too-far-out, then let's do it.

 

one other thing: this mod is not about changing the story, it's about changing the kits