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Armour and Thieving Skills


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#1 CamDawg

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Posted 21 March 2004 - 04:22 PM

I'm still woking on trying to implement a tweak I've long wanted to do--allowing thieves and rangers to use stealth and thieving skills in heavy armor with penalties. Icelus had posted a list of armor types and penalties, but they only listed ajustments for move silently and hide in shadows. Does anyone know of a sourcebook that lists penalties for lockpicking, trap detection and disarmament, etc. by armor type? Or better yet, can provide the data? :D

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#2 Caedwyr

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Posted 21 March 2004 - 04:27 PM

I believe the BGII manual includes this info in a table in the back. Check page 233.

For rangers, from the Complete Book of Rangers:

Armor: HS MS
None +5% +10%
Leather --- ---
Padded -20% -20%
Studded Leather -20% -20%
Ring Mail -30% -40%
Hide Armor -20% -30%
Brigandine -30% -40%
Scale Mail -50% -60%
Chain Mail -30% -40%
Elven Chain -10% -10%
Splint Mail -30% -40%
Banded -50% -60%
Bronze Plate -75% -80%
Plate Mail -75% -80%
Field Plate -95% -95%
Full Plate -95% -95%

For Thieves from the Complete Thieves Book:


EFFECTS OF ARMOR ON THIEF SKILLS

Armor: PP OL FR/RT MS HS

None +5% - - +10% +5%
Elfin Chain -20% -5% -5% -10% -10%
Studded or Padded -30% -10% -10% -20% -20%
Hide -60% -50% -50% -30% -20%
Ring or Chain -40% -15% -15% -40% -30%
Brigandine or Splint -40% -15% -25% -40% -30%
Scale or Banded -50% -20% -20% -60% -50%
Plate Mail -75% -40% -40% -80% -75%
Plate Armor
(Field Plate, Full Plate) -95% -80% -80% -95% -95%

Notes 1-4: See Table 37.
No skill can have a chance of success (including all adjustments) greater than 95%.
However, a character can always have a 1% chance of success, even when trying to pick
pockets in full plate armor.

Edited by Caedwyr, 21 March 2004 - 04:45 PM.


#3 Bri

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Posted 21 March 2004 - 04:49 PM

From the Complete Thief's Handbook

No Armor
Pickpockets: +5%
Move Silently: +10%
Hid in Shadows: +5%
Climb Walls: +10%


Elfin Chain
Pick Pockets: -20%
Pick Locks: -5%
Find/Remove Traps: -5%
Move Silently: -10%
Hide in Shadows: -10%
Hear Noise: -5%
Climb Walls: -20%


Studded or Padded
Pick Pockets: -30%
Pick Locks: -10%
Find/Remove Traps: -10%
Move Silently: -20%
Hide in Shadows: -20%
Hear Noise: -10%
Climb Walls: -30%


Hide
Pick Pockets: -60%
Pick Locks: -50%
Find/Remove Traps: -50%
Move Silently: -30%
Hide in Shadows: -20%
Hear Noise: -10%
Climb Walls: -60%


Ring or Chain
Pick Pockets: -40%
Pick Locks: -15%
Find/Remove Traps: -15%
Move Silently: -40%
Hide in Shadows: -30%
Hear Noise: -20%
Climb Walls: -40%


Brigandine or Splint
Pick Pockets: -40%
Pick Locks: -15%
Find/Remove Traps: -25%
Move Silently: -40%
Hide in Shadows: -30%
Hear Noise: -25%
Climb Walls: -50%


Scale or Banded
Pick Pockets: -50%
Pick Locks: -20%
Find/Remove Traps: -20%
Move Silently: -60%
Hide in Shadows: -50%
Hear Noise: -30%
Climb Walls: -90%


Plate Mail
Pick Pockets: -75%
Pick Locks: -40%
Find/Remove Traps: -40%
Move Silently: -80%
Hide in Shadows: -75%
Hear Noise: -50%
Climb Walls: -95%


Plate Armor
Pick Pockets: -95%
Pick Locks: -80%
Find/Remove Traps: -80%
Move Silently: -95%
Hide in Shadows: -95%
Hear Noise: -70%
Climb Walls: -95%
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#4 Caedwyr

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Posted 21 March 2004 - 04:58 PM

From the Complete Bard's Handbook

Armor PP

None* +5%
Leather -
Padded -30%
Studded
Leath -30%
Ring Mail -25%
Brigandine -20%
Scale Mail -25%
Hide Armor -30%
Chain Mail -25%
Elven Chain -20%
Splint Mail -40%
Banded Armor -50%
Plate Mail -75%
Bronze Plate -75%
Field Plate -95%
Full Plate -95%

If you compare these armor adjustments to the "Effects of Armor on Thief Skills" table in
The Complete Thief's Handbook, you see that bards have a special advantage when using ring
mail, brigandine, scale mail, hide armor, and chain mail. Since bards often wear such armor
while thieves do not, bards are more comfortable and familiar with the workings of these armor
types. Thus, bards suffer only about half the skill penalties that thieves suffer if wearing the same
armor.

Edited by Caedwyr, 21 March 2004 - 04:58 PM.


#5 CamDawg

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Posted 21 March 2004 - 05:12 PM

Right on. Thanks Bri, thanks Caedwyr!

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#6 Idobek

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Posted 21 March 2004 - 05:15 PM

Out of curiousity, are no armour thieving skill bonuses included in BG2 or would that have to be implemented as well? I can't be arsed to look it up myself.
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#7 CamDawg

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Posted 21 March 2004 - 05:26 PM

Heavy armor disables thieving and stealth entirely. Some armor types--elven chain and hide armor for example--use thieving penalties, but I'm not sure how consistently or accurately they're applied.

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#8 Andyr

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Posted 21 March 2004 - 05:35 PM

You'd want to be careful as the amount of points you get means you could still have a pretty stealthy thief even in full plate...
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#9 CamDawg

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Posted 21 March 2004 - 05:45 PM

But that's the point--a thief who dedicates enough time and effort IMO should be able to be stealthy in full plate. Considering they'll need to overcome 95% penalties in move silently and hide in shadows in full plate, this is not an ability that is going to come easily. :D

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#10 BevH

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Posted 21 March 2004 - 06:32 PM

I'm of the opinion that no matter how stealthy or silent a thief is, he's going to make noise wearing full plate. How can you not make noise wearing a tin can? Maybe it's just me, but I think a very stiff penalty should be applied, at the very least, if not having thieving skills diabled entirely.
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#11 NiGHTMARE

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Posted 22 March 2004 - 02:32 AM

I personally would call a total reduction to thief skills of 445% (620% in pnp) a stiff penalty!

Edited by NiGHTMARE, 22 March 2004 - 02:33 AM.


#12 BevH

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Posted 22 March 2004 - 08:37 AM

I personally would call a total reduction to thief skills of 445% (620% in pnp) a stiff penalty!

Yes, but if you look at each skill individually, it's still not much. A 95% reduction in Hide in Shadows and Move Silently is not much when a thief has 200% or better for each skill.
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#13 NiGHTMARE

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Posted 22 March 2004 - 08:51 AM

If you have that much in both Hide in Shadows and Move Silently, then that's clearly at the expense of your other skills, and you're therefore (IMHO) deserving of the ability to move around in Full Plate undetected :D.

Besides, being able to sneak around in heavy metal is far more believable than a high-level CE Asssassin being able to wield Carsomyr :D

Edited by NiGHTMARE, 22 March 2004 - 08:52 AM.


#14 BevH

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Posted 22 March 2004 - 09:04 AM

Yeah, but can you picture a tin can trying to back stab? :D

Ok, I'll concede that if Hide in Shadows and Move Silently are that high, then a thief isn't going to be very useful otherwise.
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#15 CamDawg

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Posted 22 March 2004 - 10:26 AM

And ultimately, that's why it's a tweak--some folks will look at this and :D while others will just :D

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