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[Idea] Sewers accesses


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#16 jester

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Posted 02 August 2005 - 12:42 AM

I think to add another cavern like the one teh UE inhabits sounds reasonable and the empty entrance behind the Kobold is beging for it. Perhaps you end up right in the face of that seatroll. :)

#17 SixOfSpades

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Posted 02 August 2005 - 12:59 AM

I think to add another cavern like the one teh UE inhabits sounds reasonable and the empty entrance behind the Kobold is beging for it. Perhaps you end up right in the face of that seatroll. :)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You mean the Unseeing Eye? I can picture a deep cave (anything that's below the river would have to be hella deep, and most likely not manmade) connecting the Slums and Temple sewers, mainly for the reason that all those random-spawn Goblins and Kobolds and Hobgoblins have to be coming from SOMEWHERE, and that somewhere ain't on the surface. So we're looking at the spawning grounds for a lot of roadkill enemies. (Whatever happened to Tasloi, anyway? Did their animation not make it into BG2? I don't remember seeing it.)

But if living beings are breeding down there? What the heck do they eat? And what the heck do all the Underdark races eat? Svirfneblin might be able to subsist on rocks, do the other races eat Svirfneblin?

RE: Sea Troll, I would rather see more logic applied to the Temple Sewers in the first place. At street level, there are 3 gratings to go down, even though there are only 2 ways to get back up once you're down there, and all 3 gratings lead to the same place. :)

#18 SixOfSpades

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Posted 02 August 2005 - 01:40 AM

...This is remarkably similar to the way that BioWare appears to suggest that Hidesman's place is directly above the river, which is directly above another, underground river.

I must correct myself. Upon examination of the tanner shop's exterior, there are two very distinct floors below street level, with room for a third above water level. What misled me was an error in the text: Click on the boat that Rejiek didn't use, and you'll get the message "A ship was recently attached to this platform and made a hasty getaway into the cavern's depths." You'd have a tough time describing this part of this river as a "cavern."

Speaking of BioWare map wierdness, I should also note that there are places in the Bridge District where street level appears to be roughly 20 feet above the water level, and at other places it looks more like 40 feet.

#19 Arturcic

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Posted 02 August 2005 - 01:54 AM

Of course all the Illiad story isn't clear if really happened (probably not), only clue about it is that, in the ruins found in Turkey, in the spot where the Homerian Troy should have been funded, there are 15 different cities of different epochs and, the so called Troy-7 (seventh city from first funding) was destroyed by a huge disaster (natural or human). Romantics believe that's Homer's one, the disaster obviously being the war.
My point is: regarding RULES, I agree to stay as close to orignal D&D as possible, but when there's a "reference" in the D&D universe to something "real" (from ours), I say respect CULTURAL KNOWLEDGE. Supposse in D&D there's a hero wielding a weapon called Excalibur, but in D&D it states the weapon is a warhammer, well, I would change it to bastard sword or 2-handed sword without doubt.
To hell with PnP if it says something that goes against obvious, solid things of our universe which don't depend on the rules, just on arbitrary descriptions.

#20 NiGHTMARE

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Posted 02 August 2005 - 01:57 AM

If Hollywood says that and D&D tells Styx was a river, I don't give a shit, I prefer to stay by the real facts and, if I have to choose between following D&D standards or respect cultural facts, well, my opinion is pretty clear.My two euro-cents.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Real world mythology/"cultural facts" and the D&D setting are two very different things. The latter may be based on the former, but it differs in a vast number of ways. The D&D river Styxis in no way, shape or form supposed to be the same thing that appears in Greek mythology; it simply borrows the name. In fact, the D&D Styx exists not just in the plane of Hades, but in eight other evil-aligned planes of existence as well, and serves as a means of transportation between them.

If you're going to ignore aspects of D&D just because they don't conform to real world myths, then you'll also need to pretend the setting's elves are actually tiny, pixie-like beings, the apparently reptilian trolls are actually made from stone, the seemingly mammalian kobolds, gnomes and goblins are really spirit-folk, and all kinds of other nonsense.

Oh, and if you think making a lake into a river is bad, Acheron is the name of an entire plane of existence in D&D... but then, Dante did something similar with Cocytus in his Divine Comedy, turning it from a river into the lowest plane of Hell.

Edited by NiGHTMARE, 02 August 2005 - 02:01 AM.


#21 NiGHTMARE

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Posted 02 August 2005 - 02:05 AM

Uh, wait... Styx is a river in the Iliad too:

Guneus brought two and twenty ships from Cyphus, and he was followed by the Enienes and the valiant Peraebi, who dwelt about wintry Dodona, and held the lands round the lovely river Titaresius, which sends its waters into the Peneus. They do not mingle with the silver eddies of the Peneus, but flow on the top of them like oil; for the Titaresius is a branch of dread Orcus and of the river Styx.


EDIT: also, in the Iliad and almost all other Greek myths, Charon/Caronte is the ferryman of the river Acheron, not Styx. Virgil's Aeneid makes him the ferryman of Styx, but that's the only reasonably well known source for that.

Edited by NiGHTMARE, 02 August 2005 - 02:12 AM.


#22 Arturcic

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Posted 02 August 2005 - 02:08 AM

If you're going to ignore aspects of D&D just because they don't conform to real world myths, then you'll also need to pretend the setting's elves are actually tiny, pixie-like beings, the apparently reptilian trolls are actually made from stone, the seemingly mammalian kobolds, gnomes and goblins are really spirit-folk, and all kinds of other nonsense.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


The Styx exists ONLY in greek mythology, so it's not just a matter of a universe-dependant description, like elves, gnomes, etc. It's something original and unique, which are atributtes that shuold be taken into account when porting it to another setting.

I don't say D&D creators ought to be lapidated to death (even not having said "Jehova" :) ), I just wanted to clear things up, so ppl don't think Styx is a river, just bcos D&D says so (that's why I referd to the film "Troy" as a disgusting adaptation).

#23 NiGHTMARE

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Posted 02 August 2005 - 02:10 AM

See my second post. I think you're confusing the Styx with something else, because it's a river even in the Iliad. Plus it *doesn't* only appear in Greek mythology, it's also part of Roman mythology, and is placed in the Christian Hell by several sources, most infamously Dante's Divine Comedy (which also adopted the four other rivers of the Greek underworld).

Edited by NiGHTMARE, 02 August 2005 - 02:17 AM.


#24 Arturcic

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Posted 02 August 2005 - 02:38 AM

See my second post.  I think you're confusing the Styx with something else, because it's a river even in the Iliad.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Don't worry, I'm not confusing the Styx with anything else, I know perfectly what I'm talking about. That Illiad's description is a very vague one. In the "Oddissey", when Oddysseus travels to Hades to talk to Tiresias, there's a better and deeper description, which fits the standard one:

"Go to Hades' home, sourrunded by rivers. That way to the Aqueronte run the Piriflegetonte river and the Cocito river, who are arms of the Styx lake."

The Styx is a lake, from which 4 rivers emerge (only two mentioned in the Oddissey). I can assure you my sources are pretty reliable, as my father is a university professor in classical greek mythology and theater.

Plus it  *doesn't* only appear in Greek mythology, it's also part of Roman mythology, and is placed in the Christian Hell by several sources, most infamously Dante's Divine Comedy (which also adopted the four other rivers of the Greek underworld).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Roman mythology is just a copy of greek one. They just translated the names to latin, e.g.:

Jupiter = Zeus
Baco = Dionisos
Hercules = Herakles
Ulises = Odiseus

and a long etc. They just continued and expanded it, but the basis is exactly the same.
And Christian tradition is based mainly in Plato's philosophy (among others), so don't be surprised to find references to classics.
Besides, Dante's guide to Hell is Virgilio, a latin writer, so there are lots of concepts taken from that world, too, as in every Renaissance author (that's why that epoch was called Renaissance, they recovered all the classical (greek and roman) ideas).

#25 NiGHTMARE

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Posted 02 August 2005 - 03:10 AM

Perhaps the English version of the Odyssey has long been mistranslated and you and your father are using a more accurate translation, but there are two references to the Styx being a river (plus I can't find the passage you quoted):

Calypso smiled at this and caressed him with her hand: "You know a great deal," said she, "but you are quite wrong here. May heaven above and earth below be my witnesses, with the waters of the river Styx- and this is the most solemn oath which a blessed god can take- that I mean you no sort of harm, and am only advising you to do exactly what I should do myself in your place. I am dealing with you quite straightforwardly; my heart is not made of iron, and I am very sorry for you."


"'You will want no guide,' she answered; 'raise you mast, set your white sails, sit quite still, and the North Wind will blow you there of itself. When your ship has traversed the waters of Oceanus, you will reach the fertile shore of Proserpine's country with its groves of tall poplars and willows that shed their fruit untimely; here beach your ship upon the shore of Oceanus, and go straight on to the dark abode of Hades. You will find it near the place where the rivers Pyriphlegethon and Cocytus (which is a branch of the river Styx) flow into Acheron, and you will see a rock near it, just where the two roaring rivers run into one another.


EDIT: I can find numerous references to a great lake in Hades in Greek mythology, but is called the Stygian Marsh. Apparently some Greek myths have it as the source of four of the five great rivers (Styx, Acheron, Cocytus, and Plegethon, but not Lethe), and others have it as the place souls are ferried across by Charon.

Edited by NiGHTMARE, 02 August 2005 - 03:37 AM.


#26 Arturcic

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Posted 02 August 2005 - 04:03 AM

In general, there are various descriptions, some saying it's a river, other saying it's a lake, from which rivers flow, and also stating it's a source, but the most common one, in the Caronte-Hades-Souls environment is the second one.
Anyway, as I said b4, it's not such a "crime" (as the Troy film is) on the side of D&D, I just wanted to clarify it for the guy who first mentioned it. With movies like "Troy" and "Alexander", young ppl get a distorded and false view of the myths and legendary topics, turning these young fellows into "wrong-cultured" (instead of uncultured).

#27 jester

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Posted 02 August 2005 - 05:04 AM

@SoS:

I think they would breed molerats and other critters underground like the slags at the ghost farm in Fallout2 an harvest stuff like mushrooms, but they would certainly have a weird diet and, if carnivore would not pass up on the random adventurer every now and then.

To make a sewer grid useable for the sneaky ones among us, there should definitely be some sense in the entrances/exits from the sewers to make it work (see your example what went wrong).

#28 NiGHTMARE

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Posted 02 August 2005 - 06:46 AM

With movies like "Troy" and "Alexander", young ppl get a distorded and false view of the myths and legendary topics, turning these young fellows into "wrong-cultured" (instead of uncultured).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I know just what you mean. I had a similar discussion over at PPG regarding the fact Hollywood has distorted the meaning of the words "scimitar" and "cutlass", and invented a type of sword which many people now consider to be a historical weapon (the ninja-to) :).

#29 Idobek

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Posted 02 August 2005 - 09:10 AM

* Idobek cries
Did you know G3 has secret forum rules?
Yep. They're generally of the nature 'don't annoy Idobek.'

#30 Arturcic

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Posted 02 August 2005 - 09:33 AM

OK, OK, I stop inmediately to discuss about greek mythology and its better or worse adaptations (a little culture doesn't hurt, u know :) )



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