thieves and bards and high-level traps

[Guest frabjous]

I've recently noticed that when a high-level thief sets a trap gotten as a high-level ability (Spike, Exploding or Time) trap, his/her "Set Traps" skill is checked, and so can fail to succeed in setting the trap, if that skill is low.

 

Bards, on the other hand, who have no Set Traps skill, always succeed.

 

This seems both ironic and unfair. Surely, bards shouldn't have an advantage over thieves in setting traps.

 

Moreover, the Simulacrum or Projected Image of a thief (gotten by a scroll or the helm that casts Simulacrum, or by a mage-thief) will also always succeed in setting one of these traps, even if the original thief him/herself would not always succeed.

 

Seems like a bug to me.

 

Does the Fixpack address this? Is making such a trap always succeed part of the Rogue rebalancing mod?

[seanas]

the engine wraps thief skills around at high values - from memory, 255 is the highest value a thief skill can have; after that the engine starts from zero (it might actually be a bit higher than 255, but it's lower than 300). if yr thief is over 255% in a skill, they're essentailly starting from zero again. yr simulacrum, which is always 75% of it's summoned character will only have 75% of yr thieves skill - and so is probably below the 255 mark. as Nythrun states, bards are always 100% in traps.

 

this is an engine limitation, and most likely beyond the capabilities of the fixpack.

[Guest frabjous]

The problem for me definitely wasn't the wrapping around 255 problem. My thief has never put a point in Set Traps. (He is wearing the mercykiller ring, which raises his skill slightly, but not about 255!)

 

I may have been wrong about the Simulacrums: They went through the motions and I wasn't getting a failure message for them, so I assumed they were successful. (I didn't actually test them on enemies.)

 

Still, it seems wrong that bards should have an advantage over thieves for setting traps. Perhaps there's no easy way to fix this, other than just to remove the ability for bards, which is what the rebalancing mod does. Perhaps I'll check that out.

[Guest frabjous]

OK, I've tested it now.

 

Simulacra and Projected Images can indeed set traps that DO work against enemies. And as far as I've been able to tell, they never fail, even if they are projected from a thief with a low Set Traps skill.

 

Seems like a definite bug, or at least an unintended exploit, to me.

[Guest Guest]

On the test before my last post, I first used a Project Image from a Bard. I tested it about 5 times, all traps were successful set. I guess this makes sense, since Bards start with 100%, and Projected Images are not level drained. I then used the Vhailor helm to Simulacrum a thief with a 5% Set Traps, boosted to a 25% with the Mercykiller Ring. I only tested it with two traps, and both were successfully set. Perhaps that was just a lot of Good Luck.

 

I tried again just now with a Simulacrum on the same thief but without the mercykiller ring. Failed to set any traps: makes sense if the Simulacrum's % would only be around 3%. So my most recent data matches yours, more or less.

 

I guess using this to go over the limit is a lot like using a clone to go over the usual summoning limits: not a bug per se, but has crash potential if abused. Don't know if that's moddable, but shouldn't be a high priority for change.

 

What I did think was a true bug was just the seemingly unfair advantage Bards get when setting HLA traps, but if bard traps are removed with the rebalancing mod, I don't really think anything needs changing.

[CamDawg]

Perhaps if bards had a progressive, fixed Set Traps ability score (like they do for Pick Pockets) it would be more sensible. I'm going to move this over into Song & Silence. While I agree it's not fair, it does appear intentional and I think it's beyond the scope of Fixpack to try an address this.

[SixOfSpades]

I think that's just the game's way of saying that Bards don't need any skill in setting a mechanical Trap, because their Traps aren't mechanical, they're magical. For instance, why should a Thief always have a better % chance to lay a Trap that stops time?!? In a perfect game, Thieves would have to invest skill points to ensure success in setting traps with mechanical (or explosive) effects, and Bards would have automatic success with traps that have more magical effects.