Witcher... here we go again.

[Salk]

And ye PS:T lovers, you are talking to a person who once tried to rebuild PS:T for a female NO, but gave up, because she didn't like the game much and the gorram graphics.

 

Another piece of logic that fails me... Who tries to even start such a project (which would end up taking away one of the best part of the game: the character development of the protagonist) for a game she doesn't like much?

[Domi]

Excuse me? How's character development will be taken away by changing TNO gender? I was going to re-ajust the story and characters to fit the female PC like a glove. And I'll have you know, that the only time I actually liked playing PS:T was going through the Mortuary with the Morte's and Deionar's (male Deionarra) dialogue re-written to suit a female TNO.

[vile fairy]

I think there are actually much more games available where the player is pigeon-holed into a predefined character, than where you create your own protagonist.

 

And you can have a game without pregenerated characters that still manages to pigeon-hole your created protagonist.

Neverwinter Nights 2 is an example - the differences between trying to roleplay a valiant hero and a cunning villain are cosmetic at best (and often simply non-existent); the linear storyline with little variation forces the protagonist into the "save the world" role anyway. Which only makes the ending "choice" look ridiculous.

[berelinde]

If a game doesn't offer me a chance to customize my character, I won't play it. I won't play PS:T (unless Domi decides to have another go with her nameless female, but I don't encourage her to discontinue her other projects to do it!). I won't play Witcher.

 

But I don't mind the prospect of playing BG1 Tutu, BG2, IWD2 (with IWD2 NPC only) or IWD (if IWD Tutu is ever released and somebody decides to do NPCs for that) forever, as long as folks keep writing mods..

[CoM_Solaufein]

I prefer having the ability to chose my sex, hair color, stats, etc when it comes to character creation. I don't like predetermined, premade characters. One thing I didn't like about PST is the character. Hey my name is the Nameless One and I can only be a male. How lame.

[Domi]

Neverwinter Nights 2 is an example - the differences between trying to roleplay a valiant hero and a cunning villain are cosmetic at best (and often simply non-existent); the linear storyline with little variation forces the protagonist into the "save the world" role anyway. Which only makes the ending "choice" look ridiculous.

 

The differences are pretty much the same as in BG series, actually. There is definetly much, much less distractions from the main plot than in BG1, and much les sthan in BG2, but they are there, and at times they are smarter than the usual 'kill them all' and 'I will do it for free' duality. An example is the druid vs goblin encounter where PC has to risk her life to protect peaceful goblins from a driad. I think it was well-made (though maybe it was a bug). That spirit of a dragon quest was another good example of morally difficult choice, when you could walk away with no consequences.... I think NWN2 is actually deeper than some people credit it for. But then again, I do like that game, and my protagonist worked very well for it, even if I had no idea what the story was when I created her; she was exactly perfect.

[yarpen]

I'm more bothered about the simple fact that his books suck.

Hm. Did you read this book? ;-)

 

ftp://ftp.thewitcher.com/eng/thewitcher/e...e/last_wish.zip

Here you can find translated to english - one book with novels about Witcher (Geralt).

 

And here you can find review:

http://thewertzone.blogspot.com/2007/04/la...-sapkowski.html

 

But Domi, I think that after read of it you gonna hate it. It's just not your style ;-)

[Kulyok]

I have a strange feeling that the link to the actual book in English is not, strictly speaking, legal. But, yes, I read it.

[vile fairy]

The differences are pretty much the same as in BG series, actually. There is definetly much, much less distractions from the main plot than in BG1, and much les sthan in BG2, but they are there, and at times they are smarter than the usual 'kill them all' and 'I will do it for free' duality. An example is the druid vs goblin encounter where PC has to risk her life to protect peaceful goblins from a driad. I think it was well-made (though maybe it was a bug). That spirit of a dragon quest was another good example of morally difficult choice, when you could walk away with no consequences...

 

I don't view side quests as "distractions" from the main plot.

 

BG's reputation system (as flawed as it was) and NPC reactions (like Keldorn attacking the protagonist if the reputation got too low) brought at least some consequences to the evil choices in the game.

Watching the paladin companion in NWN2 kill watchmen for the Shadow Thieves, as he follows - without any apparent doubt - my evil priestess of Umberlee doesn't show any depth; quite the opposite. You don't even have a choice whether to let the paladin join your evil protagonist.

[Domi]

I do not disagree that this was a flaw. The comanion management system and reliance on the influence was very poorely done in the Neverwinter imo, and I agree with you whole-heartedly here. Casavir should have uped and left the party if you joined the thieves against the Watch. Your alignment in NWN2, being flexible as is should have served as a reputation did in BG. On the other hand, yes, Keldorn attacked you and Mazzy was furious about Bodhi, but, say, Valygar had no comments about the Spellhold, and Aerie didn't quit your party if you killed noble, persecuted Valygar. On the other hand, Keldorn attacking you just because of your reputation made the character more shallow, I think.

 

But the quintessential choices where there for you, the Watch and the Thieves, killing your hated opponents when they are in your power or not, and your evil motivation was exactly the same as in BG1 - they were after you- because of the shard (because you were Bhaalspawn in BG1). So, NWN2 does not do anything new or more flawed there. So, I do disagree with your main point that the character was pigeon-holed. I felt that I had plenty of choice, except in very few instances, even if I wanted for example very badly that the results of the Trial mattered, or that I had more flexibility in the companions make-up and more of the character's reactions.

 

As for the side-quests and their importance to the game design... it's a long discussion, and not related to the player choices in the plot. If you want to have it, we can have it separately, perhaps, as a separate discussion thread.

[vile fairy]

So, NWN2 does not do anything new or more flawed there. So, I do disagree with your main point that the character was pigeon-holed. I felt that I had plenty of choice, except in very few instances, even if I wanted for example very badly that the results of the Trial mattered, or that I had more flexibility in the companions make-up and more of the character's reactions.

 

NWN2 has even less evil options than BG, since you cannot even attack neutral NPCs; a funny way to censor evil characters.

The choices in NWN2 might have been significant for a good protagonist, but not for a chaotic evil one; you end up a hero anyway (with the ending being the only exception, and this is what makes it look so ridiculous) - and how is that not pigeon-holing?

[Domi]

Attacking every neutral PC is generally the option that made every proponent of playing evil cringe as far as I can remember. I am not sure yoy are correct though. You can do some evil things with the guards, playing as evil character in the Dock district, and as for being a hero.... Who calls you a hero? An evil guy Nasher whose ends you serve? Do you see yourself as a hero from your actions? When you killed without need, when you slay people begging you for mercy, when you laughed at goody characters and enforced merciless and heartless conversation choices, when you attempted to join in the forces with the Ancient Evil and slay a bunch of companions who cared about you once. No, you cannot achieve an evil victory in the game (I assume because of the sequel) but you do have seriously evil choices. But a good character doesn't achieve a victory either.

[Evaine Dian]

PS:T had a memorable plot and very good interactions. Despite its poor gameplay, it's been widely praised by practically all who played it (but perhaps they were only men).

I'm female and I like PS:T. Actually, I prefer pregenerated characters. I'm tired of games that allow me to choose eye colour, hairstyle and cup size, but offer no real character development in return. I prefer a PC with great dialogue and personality. He (or she) doesn't have to be amiable in the sense of friendly, smart and pretty for me to like him, he could also be a total asshole if it's well written. I don't care about the PC in BG at all, but only about the NPCs, because they have a story to tell, while the Bhaalspawn is just lifeless to me.

 

I'm worried that the Witcher might suck, though, if they focus to much on fighting. I'd rather not see another mindless hack'n'slay game.

[berelinde]

I don't care about the PC in BG at all, but only about the NPCs, because they have a story to tell, while the Bhaalspawn is just lifeless to me.

 

Maybe. (Yes, I realize this is off-topic, but it was something I was thinking just a day or two ago.)

 

One of the things I like about writing dialogue is writing in some clever things for the PC to say, even if it's just a snappy comeback.

 

That's probably the unifying theme of NPC mods that I find most appealing. The PC response options in Kivan convey a rare depth of emotion. The PC response options in the Luxley brothers, which I'm betatesting now, are also rich and satisfying. Hublepot's just a hoot, and the PC can play along. But I guess that's one of the reasons I like mod NPCs better than BioWare: more thought went into the dialogue.

 

When your PC is locked into a role, I don't much see that happening.

[Domi]

When your PC is locked into a role, I don't much see that happening.

 

Neither do I. The Witcher, for example, has all the PC lines voiced and facial expressions apparently animated in great detail, in addition to being just that one guy. So, you truly have no way of shaping his personality and molding it and inserting any bit of your imagination in. It's that guy. You just ask him to react in that way. You are not playing as the Witcher. You are poking him to go on. Might as well just have one dialogue choice.

 

EDIT: guys, I'd like to excuse myself - it's a topic I can chew on indefinetly, but I sunk so much time into it yesterday and today, that I'm afraid it actually starting to encroach on my projects. So, yeah, I'd better stop ranting and get going.