BG: Canon NPCs vs. Mod NPCs

[berelinde]

Perhaps I should have been more clear. "Not better" != Sarevok, and "not better" != Cernd.

 

"Not better" != Sarevok: Does anybody even need anyone else in the party if Sarevok is along? My PCs are rarely that powerful. In the same vein, some of the BioWare characters are pretty useless. I try to pitch my guys somewhere between the two. Many mod NPCs are ridiculously overpowered.

 

"Not better" != Cernd: As with character strength, there's a lot of variability in terms of NPC participation in the game world. Some BioWare NPCs, like Jaheira, interject every three seconds. This annoys the living hells out of me. Others never open their mouths, even when they should. Some characters, like Jaheira, have quests that seem to dominate the game, threatening to overshadow the PC's quests. Others have less obtrusive quests. This is where many mod NPCs go overboard. Mr. Mod has something to say about everything whether it makes sense for his character or not. Meanwhile, he's got quests waiting, and no, you really can't go do something else first. I tend to view interjection frequency and personal quest content as a paired thing. If one is emphasized, the other should probably be reduced. In other words, the NPC should be present in and participate with the game world, but shouldn't dominate it. BioWare got this right... mostly.

 

All of the BioWare NPCs felt like they belonged to the game world, even if they were from a distant land, like Kara Tur. Even if they broke some established Forgotten Realms lore rules, it worked itself together into a harmonious whole. Many mod NPCs feel like they're from a different universe, even if they aren't. Rules that apply to BioWare NPCs don't apply to them. And rules introduced by the mod are ignored elsewhere in the game. And the reverse is also true, regarding origin. Tyris Flare is from a different universe, and I didn't expect her to be a good fit. To my pleasant surprise, I found my fears to be groundless. She was no more out of place in the game than the Solamnic Knights.

 

Oddly enough, the fact that a particular NPC, mod or otherwise, has a lot of non-interjection dialogue doesn't bother me. In this area, BioWare could have used a bit of a boost. If a mod NPC has seven banters per BioWare NPC or 40 separate PC dialogues, it wouldn't necessarily put me off the mod. It would depend on who won the banters. If Mr. Mod always got the last word and was never wrong or made to look foolish, the content would feel excessive. BioWare was pretty good about balance. Some NPCs got more banters than others, but apart from Anomen, no NPC was always the punching bag. With some mod NPC banters, even when the mod NPC doesn't get the literal last word, the mod NPC always seems to wind up looking like the wise and sensible one. So here, at least, I prefer the BioWare model of giving each NPC a chance to shine a bit.

[Conners]

If Mr. Mod always got the last word and was never wrong or made to look foolish, the content would feel excessive. BioWare was pretty good about balance. Some NPCs got more banters than others, but apart from Anomen, no NPC was always the punching bag. With some mod NPC banters, even when the mod NPC doesn't get the literal last word, the mod NPC always seems to wind up looking like the wise and sensible one. So here, at least, I prefer the BioWare model of giving each NPC a chance to shine a bit.

Wait, there are mod NPCs like that O_O? As in, you don't even get dialogue options which make you on equal terms?

 

I mean, let's say Mr. Mod NPC is saying, "The Sky is blue". It's quite reasonable for him to be the "sensible wise" character as far as that banter goes--but are you forced to pick between, "The sky is green you dimwit!" and, "But you must concede that clouds are golden"? If so.... that's just stupid. Sorry if saying that offends any modders, but the point of different dialogue choices is so that you can pick different options (not necessarily the perfect option being available, but still a range which is logical and should get your intentions across--for better or worse).

 

Be there NPC mods intended to just make the player feel stupid and to annoy them... I wouldn't feel like playing them :-\.

 

 

BTW, Aerie is going into my list of favourite NPCs, along with Minsc. Still have quite a few to choose from...

[Ardanis]

"Not better" != Sarevok: Does anybody even need anyone else in the party if Sarevok is along? My PCs are rarely that powerful. In the same vein, some of the BioWare characters are pretty useless. I try to pitch my guys somewhere between the two. Many mod NPCs are ridiculously overpowered.

There're no useless BioWare characters. At least in a game that is not a certain mod of certain community, which sort of forces to use certain classes. All that matters is whether they suit one's playing style and whether or not you know how to unlock their potential (some are more complicated than Korgan/Sarevok juggernaut).

 

Anomen, I actually find him to be quite fine, with loads of arrogance and angst. He belongs to the gameworld and has a realistic personality.

 

 

Anyone else finds it amazing how a 3-day-old person managed to get a whole bunch of modding big shots starting walls of text?

[jcompton]

Perhaps I should have been more clear. "Not better" != Sarevok, and "not better" != Cernd.

 

Unfortunately, what followed didn't really make it more clear. I'll rephrase and leave any specific NPC out to avoid any "oh but really Cernd's not so bad" issues:

 

- Why wouldn't any modder at least aim to have their product be better than the worst Bioware NPC, whoever the modder happens to consider that to be?

 

There're no useless BioWare characters.

 

I think she was exaggerating slightly for effect. It's well-documented that a crafty player can beat the game with a solo Jester, so yes, every core character (and just about every mod character you can conceive) has a "use." However, from a pure utility standpoint, there's a pretty clear "A-team"/"B-team" distinction, in part owing to how the characters are built and in part owing to how the gameworld is built around the characters, in terms of providing advanced weaponry, etc.

 

Going back to "what is 'better'?", sheer utility is probably the least-interesting yardstick to use there.

 

Anyone else finds it amazing how a 3-day-old person managed to get a whole bunch of modding big shots starting walls of text?

 

I just got on a roll.

[berelinde]

Grrr, typing on cold meds going less well than I'd like.

 

If Mr. Mod always got the last word and was never wrong or made to look foolish, the content would feel excessive...etc.

Wait, there are mod NPCs like that O_O? As in, you don't even get dialogue options which make you on equal terms?

To a point. There are certainly mod NPCs where the dialogue is tailored to a specific type of PC. But I was thinking of NPC/NPC content here.

 

Anomen is always the punching bag. Mod NPCs abuse him terribly. OK, he does ask for it with his attitude, as Ardanis points out, but he never gets a chance to be right. Might be hypersensitivity on my part. I adore Anomen, faults and all, and appreciate it when he gets a rare moment of sympathy.

 

Be there NPC mods intended to just make the player feel stupid and to annoy them... I wouldn't feel like playing them :-\.

I don't think modders set out to make players feel stupid. At least not intentionally. But there are definitely some over-protected NPCs out there, sheltered by loving modders from suffering any harm at the hands of other NPCs or even the careless player. Some are quite popular.

 

Better than the worst is fine. "Bestest" is less so, and that's the risk when setting out to create the perfect NPC that exceeds canon in every respect. Somewhere between the two extremes is nice: well integrated, believable, and not a lot of show-stealing.

[jcompton]

Anomen is always the punching bag. Mod NPCs abuse him terribly. OK, he does ask for it with his attitude, as Ardanis points out, but he never gets a chance to be right. Might be hypersensitivity on my part. I adore Anomen, faults and all, and appreciate it when he gets a rare moment of sympathy.

 

You are forgetting Keto, who is in fact very sweet to him (comedy nutshot notwithstanding) and takes a very active and sympathetic interest in him as a person. When Keto pokes fun at him, she's generally right--but when Anomen criticizes her, he's generally right, too.

[Ipsy]

You are forgetting Keto, who is in fact very sweet to him (comedy nutshot notwithstanding) and takes a very active and sympathetic interest in him as a person. When Keto pokes fun at him, she's generally right--but when Anomen criticizes her, he's generally right, too.

Part of the reason I consider Keto among the better mod NPCs Aside from good voicing, great writing, and being a genuinely fun and non-angsty character. There's good and bad ways to handle banter with Anomen. IMHO, Keto does a good job. Others don't - Tsujatha, for one, since IIRC he just attacks/offends everyone anyway.

[Guest Lady of payne]

Canon NPC of course. Mod NPC do with them terribly things, especially romance mod for female. I don't beleive in their Anomen.

[Lollorian]

Imho

 

Canon NPC = okay

Mod NPC = okay

 

Canon NPC with banterpack/BG1NPC/flirtpack = BANZAI!!!!

 

Same isn't true for mod NPCs unfortunately (except the ones supported by crossmod )

[Silver]

Anomen is always the punching bag. Mod NPCs abuse him terribly. OK, he does ask for it with his attitude, as Ardanis points out, but he never gets a chance to be right. Might be hypersensitivity on my part. I adore Anomen, faults and all, and appreciate it when he gets a rare moment of sympathy.

 

I agree there even though I'm not a huge Anomen fan.

I think Kelsey mod is guilty of this the most - along with the VERY weird moment in tob when Anomen suddenly went to PC with his 'let's have sex then' for no other reason than 'her watching him'. It felt so awkward and OOC I got rid of the mod the next minute.

 

Personally I like BG2 charaters just fine, with Korgan being my favourite and Edwin right behind. Those two are always on my team and I played BG2.... 40 times over? maybe more. Way too many times if you ask my family.

Out of Mods I played Xan the most, because he was the only NPC to react to some things (like facing a dragon. I always found it hillarious how nobody ever even commented when the group managed to kill a Shadow Dragon). Also he seems the most 'believeable' to me, I have a soft spot for him and I usually HATE elves so that says a lot.

 

What I don't like in some mods is the overpoetic soul in men - I know games are there to complete reality, but when a man says 'I love you' constantly from LT5 (I'm obviously sarcastic here) it doesnt even feel like he's a guy. It seems too many are written from the romantic Hollywood point of view.

 

Also, it's true how the Modder NPCs seem to be flawless - and I find it annoying that the mod-NPCs can never lose an argument with someone or be mistaken... and they have to be perfect in 100% (And always have to offer a perfect 'mating session' even whilst on street - it is boarding ridiculous. Unless it's blue magic - an argument for sex perfection of almost every modder NPC.).

[Vivi]

I think people underestimate the influence of those ruddy carpets on women.

 

When it comes down to Canon vs Mod, I'm kinda stuck half way between them. I like the Canon NPCs because they're a colorful bunch with a wide range of personalities...while the Mod NPCs tend to form "clusters" of favored races/classes/personalities. Not that you can blame people for having their preferences (especially when it comes to romance mods), but variety is the spice of life. But I must say that when it comes to Canon NPCs, I expect a *lot* more from them, since "creative freedom/artistic license" works an excuse only so many times with a known character.

 

If I have to have one more overly self-important pity-party for an NPC while I'm sitting here soulless, so help me, I will smite someone. For Helm. And then I shall suffer a -2 to reputation by frolicking on their ashes in public as the slayer. DO ~SetGlobal("ViviCompassion","GLOBAL",0)~

 

Excuse me if I happen to Xan-fan all over this post, but Kulyok is kind of my hero. He's my favorite, just because there were so many dimensions to the mod. I felt like I had to be OoC to get him to stick around -- but that's my fault for being crazy.

 

These comments make me feel like Edwin.

 

I also have to raise a point regarding berelinde's post about "modders are not their NPCs." I think they are, in a sense. Anyone who passionately works on something has put a part of themselves into it, so I can understand if someone feels hurt if they don't get positive reviews on it. On that same note, however, that doesn't mean they should bar themselves from constructive criticism.

[Silver]

I think people underestimate the influence of those ruddy carpets on women.

 

*snort* they sure do.

[Grim Squeaker]

I also have to raise a point regarding berelinde's post about "modders are not their NPCs." I think they are, in a sense. Anyone who passionately works on something has put a part of themselves into it, so I can understand if someone feels hurt if they don't get positive reviews on it.

 

I'd like to go on the record to say that if any part of me is shared by Tyris, it's not the dress sense.

 

(I don't have the rack or the hips to get away with that outfit...)

[Ladile]

I like a blend of both; a couple of canon NPCs for familiarity and because they always feel like they belong in the setting, and a few mod NPCs for a taste of something a little different. I tend to be selective about what mods I try and use, since I can't stand bad/lazy writing (for original or canon NPCs) or NPCs that just feel completely out of place.

 

Generally, if I try a mod written by a particular author and I enjoy it, then I keep my eye out for other mods from the same author, as well as other mods that the author might recommend. For example, I loved Xan BG1/BG2, so when I saw that Kulyok had done a IWD1 NPC mod, I jumped all over it; another is that I've seen Domi (whose IWD2 mod I enjoyed) speak highly of the Amber mod, so I'm going to give it a try.

 

This doesn't mean that I hate or dislike some of the other mods out there, but rather that those other mods just aren't what I'm looking for or interested in with my style of play. Auren Aseph would fit into this category, but since I did enjoy the writing from what parts of the mod I *did* play, I'd like to try the Sarah mod by the same author.

 

One thing that cuts down on my overall list of NPC mods at the moment is that I always like to move on immediately to ToB once I finish SoA, but some of the NPCs I want to play with don't have ToB content yet. I ran into this problem with Keto, who I adored. As a result, I wait until the ToB content (if any is planned) gets published before I play the mod at all.

[Shaitan]

I usually play with following cannon npc's and thus they are going to be fav' of some degree:

Jaheira

Nalia

Anomen

Minsc

Imoen

Mazzy

 

And the mod npc's I usually play with are:

 

Kivan

Xan

Gavin

Auren

Sarah

Ninafer (from the Undying)

 

There's some qualities I prefer among npc's wether they are mod added or cannon:

-they should have enough banters

-they should tie in well with the history

-they should be relatively bug free

-crossmod material are really good.

-I like mod npc's to be with me all the way to the Throne.

 

I tend to have 2-3 mod added npc's in my party (of 6).

 

Cheers