Alignment shift?

[JPS]

Well, I don't know. Apparantly, something like that was planned by the game design team at one point (which is why I consider it at all. I don't like alignments and would rather not do anything to draw attention to them. But that's just me), but somehow it doesn't make complete sense.

 

I could see an event like that changing the life of someone who has believed in law and order his entire life, throwing him into chaos, but it just doesn't work the other way around. Chaotic neutral seems like an alignment that's very hard to turn away from – I mean, CN characters sort of expect a life-cahnging event every know and then...

 

And people would probably think that we're ripping off the Anomen romance  

[Bibbi]

well, imo, one way to "get him off chaos" so to speak would be to show someone who's subjected to chaos and the pain it puts them through (i'm thinking of the imoen idea used initially, but something else could do).  haer'dalis could see this suffering due to chaos and start to doubt how wonderful it is.  maybe he still believes in it, he just doesn't agree with it/respect it as much as before, making him think before acting or some such

[Scythesong Immortal]

Some thoughts.

 

Doubts would be the best place to start. But this would be very hard to a Bard who actually sings praises and heralds with his entire being chaos and entropy.

It would work to to some extent to other CN's, but I think Haer makes an exception.

I think it would actually take something serious that happens to the PC itself, who Haer has been romancing and having philosphical arguements and talks from time to time, for Haer to actually question his beliefs. Perhaps the loss of the PC's soul that Irenicus stole, which is entropy in its own way, ensuring a slow, painful and steady demise? Haer could reflect on this and his love and probably learn a thing or two.

[JPS]

Well, I think I've said this before somewhere, but the only believable way I see for Haer'Dalis to change his alignment would be by spending a couple of years or decades with a lawful or neutral main character (or with Aerie, by all means) and slowly realizing that things are not falling apart and that he's actually rather comfortable with it. But that's probably not going to happen in the game (unless you really like to take your time...).

 

And changing from chaotic neutral to true neutral seems a bit boring, doesn't it?

 

EDIT: By the way, I think Haer'Dalis would have seen people suffer from chaos and entropy before. That's more or less inevitable if you're a Doomguard.

 

The thought behind their ideology seems to be that the pain and suffering brought by letting entropy have its way (or even helping it a bit) is still better than what you get if you try to fight entropy (and that's a bit of a simplification too. Many Doomguards would say that trying to stop entropy also increases it).

[Meira]

Well, I think I've said this before somewhere, but the only believable way I see for Haer'Dalis to change his alignment would be by spending a couple of years or decades with a lawful or neutral main character (or with Aerie, by all means) and slowly realizing that things are not falling apart and that he's actually rather comfortable with it. But that's probably not going to happen in the game (unless you really like to take your time...).

Somehow I just don't see him staying with one girl that long. I would imagine that he would get bored / annoyed long before that.

 

Besides who says that his doonguard ideology should be changed? What is so wrong about it? What can change nature of the man? And why it should be changed at all?

 

Then again I'm not sure, but I think I have a totally polar view on what kind of romance Haer'Dalis romance should be, so maybe I should not be making these comments. I'm not making this mod after all. But you guys are and that is indeed great.

 

-Meira

[JPS]

Somehow I just don't see him staying with one girl that long. I would imagine that he would get bored / annoyed long before that.

 

Well, there are those nifty mind control collars you can pick up in the Mind Flayer lair, you know...  

 

But I agree that this mod shouldn't be about changing Haer'Dalis, really. I got into this mod because I like him the way he is, for one thing, and I suppose most people who would play a Haer'Dalis romance also like him the way he is.

 

And even without looking at it from that perspective, I can't really think of anything that would change him. One good thing about not really getting anything done is that I have lots of time to think of things that just won't work, and I believe that an alignment change is one of them.

 

Then again I'm not sure, but I think I have a totally polar view on what kind of romance Haer'Dalis romance should be, so maybe I should not be making these comments. I'm not making this mod after all. But you guys are and that is indeed great.

 

Really? Then I must have expressed myself unclearly, because I pretty much agree with everything you say.

[Meira]

Then again I'm not sure, but I think I have a totally polar view on what kind of romance Haer'Dalis romance should be, so maybe I should not be making these comments. I'm not making this mod after all. But you guys are and that is indeed great.

 

Really? Then I must have expressed myself unclearly, because I pretty much agree with everything you say.

No, apparently I was the one who was not expressing herself entirely clearly. *Looks at the sentence monster she created with growing horror.*

 

I took some time and read through all the threads in this forum (and one in the UB forum) in order to get some sort of idea where this mod was going. It was somewhat difficult since majority of the info is of course at the hidden forum and that results to a somewhat fractured presentation at this forum.

 

As a side note: you might want to consider a info thread outlining the general tone of this mod or something similar.

 

Anyway, when I said that I have a polar view of how this mod should be I meant that I greatly disagree with some ideas presented here (in this forum). Meaning I don't necessarily disagree with you JPS. Mainly I see myself in a different page with Bibbi as good as his ideas are. I hope you wont be offended with this, Bibbi - different ideas make life worth while and that's part of what makes Haer so interesting since he is certainly different from other NPC's.

 

I just don't see a possibility of a 'happily ever after' with Haer'Dalis romance. I just don't see it, which might be due my own limited imagination, but still I don't see how it could work without making Haer into something he's not. So I'm somewhat bothered in what might become out of the so called 'romantic path'. Naturally I don't know the details so I might worry for nothing.

 

And I'm extremely bothered by suggestions that Doomguard philosophy and Haer being CN is something that his clinging on for some past trauma and that it's a thing that he should be 'cured' from. While might not be a philosophy that I personally might find entirely appealing, the world in which everyone is made to fit something one might consider 'good', 'proper' or 'ideal' is just too terrible to even think about.

 

Now while I'm not expert on factions I don't think that him considering of joining Senesates (sp?) is in any way conflicting with the fact that he actually become Doomguard. If you think that everything is going down the toilet nothing is stopping you to be extremely interested in experiencing of what exactly is going down and how.

 

I was also somewhat bothered by the Aerie bashing on the other thread. While I'm not exactly fan of the little elf and I do like well written romance conflicts I would like to see the 'losing' char being able to walk out with some of her (or his) dignity still intact. But I assume that NPC bashing is not going to be major part of this mod. Call me boring for that if you wish...

 

Of course these points might not even be valid since I have no way of knowing what has bee decided in the development forum. Apologies in advantage for going off topic and possibly stepping on peoples toes - latter not being my intention.

 

Keep up the good work, all of you.

 

-Meira

[JPS]

I took some time and read through all the threads in this forum (and one in the UB forum) in order to get some sort of idea where this mod was going. It was somewhat difficult since majority of the info is of course at the hidden forum and that results to a somewhat fractured presentation at this forum.

 

Not only that, but the information in the workroom forum is just as fractured. I change my mind all the time and forget to tell people  

 

And since nothing is really settled once and for all until the mod is finally released it's abit difficult to give some kind of general overview. I should do it anyway, of course, but I'm too lazy to actually do something about it. Some day, though, there will be a general overview thread. Thanks for reminding me.

 

For the moment, here's the deal:

 

I'm going to do my best to tone down the alignment issue. I think it's a clumsy and unnecesary rules mecanic that tends to get in the way of things that actually matter, like the personality, backgruond and values of a character.

 

I'm trying hard to avoid one romance path being "good", another "neutral" and the third "evil" (that's one of the reasons that I'm working really slowly at the moment). I certainly don't want the romantic path to be the "right" one that "saves" Haer from this or that. It would be just as right to say that a romantic path that ends with Haer'Dalis changing would be the "evil" path, since it forces him to become something that he's not. Will it be "happily ever after" if only one of the parties is happy? In fact, that's a very good question that will probably turn up at some point in the romance.

 

But at the same time we have to allow for as many different PC personalities as possible. In the Haer'Dalis-Aerie romance, he pretty much tells her that it won't last and she accepts that, but most PCs probably won't be like Aerie, so there have to be other options as well. At the moment, I'm not exactly sure what these options are going to be, but trying to change his mind seems like one obvious reaction. That doesn't mean that the relationship will necessarily work out in the long run, of course.

 

Haer'Dalis' idea of a life-long relationship – if he would actually stop to think about it – would probably be something along the lines of an open marriage (not necessarily an actual marriage, of course, but I've already written "relationship" once in this sentence and I wanted to keep it balanced. Ruined that now, though) where both parties are free to do whatever they want with whomever they want but where they always come back to each other. And I can imagine that there will be players who want to  get the opportunity to dissagree if he suggests something like that.

 

Er... I think I got lost there somewhere. What was I trying to say? Oh yes; it will be possible to try to change Haer'Dalis, but that won't necessarily be presented as the best option, and almost certainly not as the "good" option.

 

As for the Doomguard philosophy, I've read up a bit on it and I'm actally starting to like it. This could mean that I've lost my mind, but I hope that it also means that it will be treated fairly. The thing that I'm worried about at the moment, faction-wise, is that I'm going to make the Sensates come across as a pack of selfish bastards (umm... CamDawg? Feel free to change that to ba**ards if gibberlings3.netgibberlings3.netgibberlings3.netyou think it's necessary for public safety) who see other people as no more than possible sources of experience. But I'm sure that it will work out in the end.

 

And don't worry about the Aerie-bashing. No Avariel will be harmed during the making of this mod.   Seriously, though, it will be possible to be nasty to Aerie, but it will also be possible to be nice to her and become friends with her, so any Aerie-bashing will be completely optional. People who treat the Aerie situation very badly might even find that there are serious consequences...

 

Generally, I think things will work out. I can of course only speak for myself, but I think that all the people in the team are trying to keep Haer'Dalis as much in character as possible at all times. There will of course be times when we interpret his character differently and times when we just don't agree, but that's one of the consequences of working in a team, and I wouldn't want it any other way. At one point I was told off by Bibbi for making Haer sound like Salvanas (is that his name? The bar fly in the Copper Coronet, in case I got the name wrong), so whatever you think of his ideas here, you already owe him a lot  

 

As always, these discussions really help, so please keep stepping on our toes.  

[Meira]

Thank you for taking time to respond. I'm feeling better already.  

 

At one point I was told off by Bibbi for making Haer sound like Salvanas (is that his name? The bar fly in the Copper Coronet, in case I got the name wrong), so whatever you think of his ideas here, you already owe him a lot  

 

Now, I don't want to think about that guy... Seems like I indeed own one to Bibbi.

 

-Meira

[Scythesong Immortal]

I share the same sentiments. Thank heavens for Bibbi then.

[Dancer Fitz]

Not only that, but the information in the workroom forum is just as fractured. I change my mind all the time and forget to tell people 

LOL, well, it is mind boggling trying to swallow a new philosophy, compare it to another philosophy, think of ways HD(or, really, any individual) can be properly romanced, *then* split it into several different paths, all with plausible consequences...*thinks*... agh! Wait, what? I need some wine...

 

Haer'Dalis' idea of a life-long relationship – if he would actually stop to think about it – would probably be something along the lines of an open marriage, : where both parties are free to do whatever they want with whomever they want but where they always come back to each other.

 

I also like the idea of an unconventional relationship and epilogue the more I think on it. It would be an interesting challenge to write a love story that *is* love (to HD), working w/ his wayward ways.

 

Like a relationship based on a deep understanding; certain unconventionalities could be addressed and may indeed cause conflict(depending on how the PC plays it), but their relationship endures regardless. ... ...yes, that should make sense...

 

But however it turns out, yes, everyone involved in the mod wants to see it succeed (hm...well, obviously... ), so there's a lot of well-intentioned and thoughtful work going on behind the scenes...

 

I've mostly been just watching said work, so you can trust me on that...

 

JPS, do you want me to try and embody that sensate role(ie do unnaturally massive research and what not)? I've just started work on that other tiefling mod, and one of the NPC's might be a sensate, so I'd be killing two birds w/ one stone, so to speak.

[JPS]

JPS, do you want me to try and embody that sensate role(ie do unnaturally massive research and what not)? I've just started work on that other tiefling mod, and one of the NPC's might be a sensate, so I'd be killing two birds w/ one stone, so to speak.

 

Sure, if you want to. I don't know how much will actually end up in the lovetalks, but information is always appreciated. And if you and Grim will have use for it as well you won't have wasted your time if all your hard works ends up as a sentence or two in the dialogue option that nobody chooses  

[Dancer Fitz]

Sure, if you want to. I don't know how much will actually end up in the lovetalks, but information is always appreciated. And if you and Grim will have use for it as well you won't have wasted your time if all your hard works ends up as a sentence or two in the dialogue option that nobody chooses 

LOL, alright then, if you put it that way.... *shoves some cobwebs aside and throws sensate folder in back of file cabinet* I'll get around to it later... :

[Koson]

I'd also say to keep Haer CN whatever happened toward the end of the romance. It takes a soul-shattering event to change someone's fundamental beliefs, but somehow HD seems to me to be open to the idea that it may happen, so no matter what he'd still stick to his chaotic view...

 

And the idea of an open relationship does sound very in-character for our bard.

[Tameon the Dragoon]

I really hate to bring up such an old topic, but I really wanted to ask something. If you do offer a chance to change Haer'Dalis's alignment, could you do so even if you do not romance him (pretty please!)? Haer'Dalis is probobly my second favorite character (beaten only by Minsc), but I hate his alignment!

 

PS: JPS, do you remember Curious HD Fan from the UB board? You probobly don't, but in anycase that was me !