Jump to content

Suggested Components: 3e Style Thac0 Progression & Universal HP Bonus


Reddbane

Recommended Posts

3rd edition did a lot of good things to smooth out and balance the purely mechanical aspects of character creation in Dungeons and Dragons when compared to 2nd edition. Two of these, which can easily be implemented in BG, BG2, IWD by the modifying the 2da files, are the reworking of the to-hit bonus progression, and making the hp bonus granted by Constitution the same for both Warrior and non-Warrior classes.


To be more specific in 3e, to-hit bonus progression (in 3e called BAB) was divided into three progression rates: High, Medium, and Low. High, used by Warrior type classes, was much the same as Warrior to-hit bonus progression in 2e, that is it increased by +1 with each level, except that in 3e the warrior actually starts with +1 to-hit bonus as opposed to the 2e warrior who started with none (Thac0 20), because BAB in 3e for a warrior was said to be equal to his level (thus a Level 1 Fighter has a +1 to-hit bonus in 3e.) Medium was similar to the Priest to-hit in progression in 2e, in that they both ended at about ¾ of the level 20 warrior to-hit bonus (15 BAB in 3e and 6 Thac0 in 2e.) The differences are, first, that 3e Medium progression is much less wonky than 2e Priest progression. In 2e the priest gains his to-hit bonuses sporadically and in large chunks, gaining a +2 to-hit every third level up. By comparison the 3e Medium to-hit progression is much more even and gradual, as it is equal to ¾ of the Characters level, rounded down, so that at Level 1 a character has 0 to-hit bonus, a level 2 has +1 to-hit bonus ( because ¾ X 2 = 1.5, and 1.5 is rounded down to 1,) a level 3 character has +2, level 4 has + 3 to-hi, level 5 has + 3 to-hit, so on and so forth until at level 20 he has + 15 to-hit (comparable to the final Priest Thac0 of 6 I.e. a +14 to-hit bonus.) The other major difference is that in 3e Thieves and Bards also receive the Medium to-hit progression, rather than, as in 2e, receiving a +1 to-hit bonus every 2nd level, ending up in 2e with a final to-hit bonus of 10, I.e. 10 Thac0. Rather this half-level to-hit progression is called Low in 3e, and reserved only for totally non-combat classes, like Wizards and Sorcerers. This means in 3e Wizards have a slightly, though only slightly, higher final to-hit bonus than 2e Wizards, that is a 3e Wizard has a final +10 to hit bonus, while a 2e Wizard has a final to-hit bonus of + 7 or a 13 Thac0. Mechanically speaking the changes don’t alter the Fighter or Wizard all that much, the Fighter will still be the best in combat and the Wizard still won’t be able to hit anything, but for the Clerics, Druids, and (especially) Rogues and Bards, the game becomes much more playable at all levels. In 3e Priests have far less empty levels, and don’t have to wait for every third level to experience a sudden surge in their combat prowess; but, more importantly, Rogues and Bards in 3e can actually hit enemies, making the Rogues Sneak Attack ability actually useful, and making Bards more like the mix of Fighter/Thief/Mages they are supposed to be. In BG’s current system when building a Thief character, it is almost mandatory that the player start as a Fighter and eventually Dual, or make a Multi-class character, if you want to remain viable for the whole of the series, so underpowered are single classed thieves (with the possible exception of the Swashbuckler, though even they eventually fall behind Fighter/Thieves), while Kits who specialize in backstabbing, Assassins and Shadowdancers are practically useless. (What does it matter if you have 7x backstab if you can’t hit anything.) I believe being altering Thief to-hit progression to 3e levels would give the player a greater incentive to play Solo thieves rather than just using Fighter/Thieves. I don’t this will break balance to much, as thieves still won’t get Warrior Specialization bonuses and extra APR. In the included table* below I’ve displayed how I believe the 3e style Thac0 should take place, preserving the l level delay in 2e to-hit progression, using this equation to calculate Rogue Thac0:


20 - [(Level - 1) x 0.75] = Thaco rounded up




*Warrior Thac0 remains the same but is included for comparison, and Mage merely receive the old Rogue progression.


The other component I’d like to see is the option to allow all classes to receive Bonus hit points for a Constitution score over 16, like in 3e. Currently a cleric or thief or mage with a 16 Con is exactly the same as one with a 19 Con, which seems counter-intuitive.


As I’ve said, both these changes can easily be made by modifying the respective 2da files, simple enough that I’ve done them myself in my own game. The only reason I think they should be included in Tweaks Anthology is because the project is aimed at tweaking the game for the non-programming inclined player. There is precedent for including 3e style Tweaks, such as Armored casting, Armored thieving, and Level based casting saving throw bonuses; Also I see these revised Thac0 tables as more stable solution to late game Thief woes than the current “Unnerfed Thac0 Table” Tweak, as the revised Thac0 table effects low level play and still caps at level 21.


Thanks for your time.

Link to comment

Mechanically speaking the changes don’t alter the Fighter or Wizard all that much, the Fighter will still be the best in combat and the Wizard still won’t be able to hit anything,

Yeah, right, the mage just casts two spells and he'll be better at fighting than their fighter counter part and ouh yeah, immune to all melee damage.

There's a reason for the standing balance, the caps at level 21 and so on.

I can see the Constitution part as a limiting, but to fix that you just need to edit the hpconbo.2da so the "other" row matches the "warrior" one. And that's that. And if you wish to do this after installing the tweaks mods hitpoint component, it's as easy as editing the file you'll find in the override folder, with Notepad.

Link to comment

Yeah, right, the mage just casts two spells and he'll be better at fighting than their fighter counter part and ouh yeah, immune to all melee damage.

 

 

There's a reason for the standing balance, the caps at level 21 and so on.

I can see the Constitution part as a limiting, but to fix that you just need to edit the hpconbo.2da so the "other" row matches the "warrior" one. And that's that. And if you wish to do this after installing the tweaks mods hitpoint component, it's as easy as editing the file you'll find in the override folder, with Notepad.

 

 

Does 10 as opposed 13 Thac0, a grand total + 3 to-hit difference at level 21, really break the Wizard, its not like it makes Tenser's Transformation any more powerful, as it resets your Thac0 to a fighter of the same level. That aside the main purpose is to balance Thieves. Unnerfed Thac0 already breaks the 21 Thac0 cap, so why would be any less reasonable to add a option to merely modify Thac0 progression to 3e standards. And as I've said I've made all these edits in my own game, I just think it's an option (like most of the options in Tweaks) a new player might like.

Link to comment

Rather than a .pdf, why not show the suggested table on your post ? It's not a question of principle, but of actual figures.

Yeah, the main problem with the 3e is the mage power progression, in this game, it is the most dubious in the scales of power than others. You can solo a Mage/Sorcerer and take everyone on.. not so much with a Barbarian/Berserker. And Monk too, but that's different subject.

Remember the TT is just one spell that almost equalize the Mage to a Fighter. They can cast thousand things. The other spell is the Protection from Weapons or PfMW if the opponent has magical weapons.

Link to comment

I'm not sure why there's such an objection to changing the thac0 table. Even if we accept that this is horribly unbalancing, 1) this is a tweak pack and b) it wouldn't be the first component to do so.

Link to comment

Rather than a .pdf, why not show the suggested table on your post ? It's not a question of principle, but of actual figures.

 

I'm not so good at using BBcode; I tried making a table in post but it wound up a horrible mess, so the easiest method for me is to just include a pdf of the Thac0.

Link to comment

Hah, the fun is all in the done:

2DA V1.0
0
                       1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 ..
MAGE                   20 20 19 19 18 18 17 17 16 16 15 15 14 14 13 13 12 12 11 11 10 ..
FIGHTER                20 19 18 17 16 15 14 13 12 11 10 9  8  7  6  5  4  3  2  1  0  ..
CLERIC                 20 20 19 18 17 17 16 15 14 14 13 12 11 11 10 9  8  8  7  6  5  ..
THIEF                  20 20 19 18 17 17 16 15 14 14 13 12 11 11 10 9  8  8  7  6  5  ..

As opposed to:

MzFQzB.jpg

Link to comment

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...