the problem with trueclasses

[subtledoctor]

There's a very basic tension with the idea of kits (especially with the BG2 idea of kits, which tend to be rather 3e-ish/munchkin-ish/focused on powerful mechanical benefits). You want the Trueclass 'kits' to stand on their own next to the more specialized kits, so Demi makes a bunch of cool stuff like stances and auras and dirty tricks etc. Which is great.

 

But then you roll a multiclass fighter/mage. And the multiclass character is getting all these benefits - essentially, the benefits of a kitted character - even though multiclass aren't supposed to be able to take kits because being multiclass really is their "kit."

 

So you tone down the trueclass kit abilities. But now they're not as good as the kits! You could keep swinging from one side to the other, trying to balance things, and you'll never stop.

 

You could give the trueclass kit abilities via .EFFs that prevent them from being applied to multiclasses. But, now players won't get abilities they expect and they'll complaining all over your forum.

 

Here's the solution: let the trueclasses be inferior. Just let them suck! Let them exist solely for multi/dual-class characters. For the 'base' kit that you want to balance against the kits, make a new one. Call it Soldier, Burglar, Pathfinder. Give this kit your special abilities that you designed for the trueclasses, and (this is the key) replace the "0" in K_F_x.2da with your new kit. So when a player hits the 'Fighter' class, they will be presented with 4 options: Soldier, Berserker, Kensai, Wizard Slayer. There will be no option to play the inferior 'fighter.' But, if the player clicks 'multiclass' then they will get a fighter/x, with the base fighter, no bells or whistles.

 

This would work very well for fighters, thieves, druids and rangers. It's not possible for wizards unfortunately, since there are no K_M_x files to edit. It would be utterly unnecessary for bards and Paladins, since they can't multi/dual. And for clerics... eh, I'd say it's probably not necessary.

[kreso]

This is indeed an issue, however I feel it can be "fixed" by tweaking several things:

- level progression chart

- nerfing STR THAC0 bonuses (important for called shot ability)

- granting better abilities/auras at really high levels (20+)

- HLA tables can be easilly tweaked to "favor" true classes more

- even now, multis never gain apr from proficiency, only from level

 

Moreover, one of the benefits of keeping True class "kitted" is that SCS grants the same abilities to all enemy true classes.

[InKal]

hmm... "granting better abilities/auras at really high levels (20+)" not really a good idea. the best stuff you can only use in ToB that way. not a good idea imo you practicaly killing all the fun.

[subtledoctor]

- even now, multis never gain apr from proficiency, only from level

 

Wait, what? Really? TobEx to the rescue!

 

Moreover, one of the benefits of keeping True class "kitted" is that SCS grants the same abilities to all enemy true classes.

Ah - this is a very good counterpoint.

[kreso]

 

- even now, multis never gain apr from proficiency, only from level

Wait, what? Really? TobEx to the rescue!

I'm not sure I understand. You don't need TobEx for that (or you mean you give apr per specialization (**) for everybody in your mod?).

 

 

 

Moreover, one of the benefits of keeping True class "kitted" is that SCS grants the same abilities to all enemy true classes.

Ah - this is a very good counterpoint.

 

Yeah....the only problem is that SCS assigns kits on a creature-per-creature basis. The more crap you add to clabs and more creatures to the game (various quest mods etc), the longer the install takes to finish.

[subtledoctor]

 

 

- even now, multis never gain apr from proficiency, only from level

Wait, what? Really? TobEx to the rescue!

I'm not sure I understand. You don't need TobEx for that (or you mean you give apr per specialization (**) for everybody in your mod?).

Yes I think everyone should benefit from specialization-based apr bonuses. On BGT I used TobEx for that. No, wait - it's not TobEx, it's in the_Bigg's TweakPack. "Taimon's WSPATCK for all."

 

That doesn't work on the EEs, so I released an EE-specific mod for that purpose.

[kreso]

Aha. It's in Tobex as well:

Engine:Weapon Specialisation Number of Attacks Mod=0 (set to 1 to have all gain apr from spec I guess - never tried it but I guess it works)

[subtledoctor]

It's not that simple, because just giving all classes access to wspatck.2da would give them level-based apr bonuses at 7 and 13 as well. the_Bigg's mod and my EE mod give everyone spec bonuses, but keep the level-based bonuses as warrior-only.

[Jarno Mikkola]

...but keep the level-based bonuses as warrior-only.

Isn't the most balanced system one that gives everyone the bonuses if they have the proficiency requirements, what those are of course should be individually decided by the component that is installed ?

Like say you have a mage that has 5 points in Two Handed Sword style, shouldn't he/she be entitled to the same bonuses the fighter is ? No matter what the primary class is or how ever they got the bonuses from...

wspatck.2da's content:

2DA V1.0
0
LEVEL1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50
     0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0 0
1    0 0 0 0 0 0 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1 1
2    0 0 0 0 0 0 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1 1
3    -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 1 1 1 1 1 1 -2 -2 -2 -2 -2 -2 -2 -2 -2 -2 -2 -2 -2 -2 -2 -2 -2 -2 -2 -2 -2 -2 -2 -2 -2 -2 -2 -2 -2 -2 -2 -2 -2 -2 -2 -2 -2 -2
4    -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 1 1 1 1 1 1 -2 -2 -2 -2 -2 -2 -2 -2 -2 -2 -2 -2 -2 -2 -2 -2 -2 -2 -2 -2 -2 -2 -2 -2 -2 -2 -2 -2 -2 -2 -2 -2 -2 -2 -2 -2 -2 -2
5    1 1 1 1 1 1 -2 -2 -2 -2 -2 -2 2  2  2  2  2  2  2  2  2  2  2  2  2  2  2  2  2  2  2  2  2  2  2  2  2  2  2  2  2  2  2  2  2  2  2  2  2  2

 

 

[kreso]

It's not that simple, because just giving all classes access to wspatck.2da would give them level-based apr bonuses at 7 and 13 as well. the_Bigg's mod and my EE mod give everyone spec bonuses, but keep the level-based bonuses as warrior-only.

I had a crazy idea when few weeks ago I installed IWD2 (best combat system ever imo) - stripping away all apr from *any* proficiency for *all* classes including fighters (pips would only give damage/THAC0) and granting exra apr when your *base* THAC0 reaches a certain score. It would have to be manually added to respective clab files.

Example:

THAC0=20 - 1 apr

THAC0=15 - 1.5apr

THAC0=10 - 2 apr

THAC0= 5 -2.5 apr (this is clerics and thieves' max THAC0 score in KR)

THAC0= 0 - 3 apr (maximum)

 

So, all would get some apr, thieves and clerics later than fighters (since their THAC0 progresses slower, and assuming everybody shares same XP table), and fighters would still keep their expertise in fighting due to more HP, faster apr gain, more damage etc.

Good thing about it would be I could play a cleric and enjoy the benefits of extra attacks without resorting to dual/multi-classing. He would never be as accurate or as damaging as a proper figher, but at level 20 he'd be only 0.5 apr behind what a pure fighter could attack with.

Bad thing is it would require tweaking quite a bit of stuff. Paladins, rangers etc.

I also don't know how and if it would work for dual/multi classes (maybe they'd end up with even more apr than single-classes! )

[Jarno Mikkola]

Example:

THAC0=20 - 1 apr

THAC0=15 - 1.5apr

THAC0=10 - 2 apr

THAC0= 5 -2.5 apr (this is clerics and thieves' max THAC0 score in KR)

THAC0= 0 - 3 apr (maximum)

That's a "nice" example, but what about the +x items ? I am pretty sure that if your fighter has a +5 weapon, he'll likely has a THAC0 of 15. So he should have a 1.5 apr even at level 1. .

[subtledoctor]

 

It's not that simple, because just giving all classes access to wspatck.2da would give them level-based apr bonuses at 7 and 13 as well. the_Bigg's mod and my EE mod give everyone spec bonuses, but keep the level-based bonuses as warrior-only.

I had a crazy idea when few weeks ago I installed IWD2 (best combat system ever imo) - stripping away all apr from *any* proficiency for *all* classes including fighters (pips would only give damage/THAC0) and granting exra apr when your *base* THAC0 reaches a certain score. It would have to be manually added to respective clab files.

Example:

...

 

I guess that makes some sense, but I don't think there's a way to do it in BG2. Anyway, why not just keep it simple and just give APR bonuses at different levels in the CLAB files, it would basically reach the same result (except for not accounting for item/spell thac0 bonuses) and it would be super-easy.

 

I go back and forth about whether to give APR bonuses for proficiency... in the current system I'm working on, it's determined *entirely* by proficiency (makes sense, doesn't it?) and the classes are differentiated by how fast they gain proficiency slots. E.g. rogues can get Mastery, which results in 2 APR... but they can't get Mastery until level 8 and the Mastery APR doesn't kick in until level 15. So thieves' progression is:

Level 1: 1 APR

Level 4: 3/2 APR (assuming they use their prof to become Specialized)

Level 15: 2 APR (Mastery bonus kicks in)

 

Swashbucklers and Assassins can reach High Mastery, so:

Level 1: 1 APR

Level 4: 3/2 APR (assuming they use their prof to become specialized)

Level 12: 2 APR (can reach High Mastery with 1 prof each 4 levels)

Level 15: 5/2 APR (Mastery bonus kicks in)

 

Fighters can reach GM, and get a prof slot every 2 levels. So:

Level 1: 1 APR

Level 2: 3/2 APR (assuming they use their prof to become specialized)

Level 8: 2 APR (High Mastery bonus kicks in)

Level 12: 5/2 APR (Grandmastery bonus kicks in)

Level 15: 3 APR (Mastery bonus kicks in)

[Jarno Mikkola]

I guess that makes some sense, but I don't think there's a way to do it in BG2. Anyway, why not just keep it simple and just give APR bonuses at different levels in the CLAB files, it would basically reach the same result (except for not accounting for item/spell thac0 bonuses) and it would be super-easy.

Because it's not actually that easy. Install any other kit mod after and that kit get's screwed, HARD ! As this is not part of the original setup within the game. And I am not convinced you could even do it dynamically even with the kit mods that have already been installed.

[kreso]

That's a "nice" example, but what about the +x items ? I am pretty sure that if your fighter has a +5 weapon, he'll likely has a THAC0 of 15. So he should have a 1.5 apr even at level 1. .

 

Yeah, and it would differ if one has str score of 19 or 10, how many pips he has in a weapon etc., none of which is doable.

Hence the only relevant parameter would be their base progression.

[subtledoctor]

Because it's not actually that easy. Install any other kit mod after and that kit get's screwed,

Well yeah, install order matters with these games, I think everyone using mods is aware of that by now. I tell people that my mod must be installed after all other kit mods, if they can't follow such simple instructions, well that's not my fault.

 

And I am not convinced you could even do it dynamically even with the kit mods that have already been installed.

I haven't investigated whether the_Bigg's mod works with all kits or just the vanilla ones. I came up with a subroutine in my EE mod that will add CLAB abilities to all kits of x class currently installed. (It misses Trueclass lits since they have no entries in kitlist.2da, but they are easy to handle separately since they are fixed targets.)

 

It's very handy, I use it numerous times in my mod. Like, if you install my warrior tweak that gives a toggleable "Quickstride" ability to rangers and monks, it will add the ability to ALL ranger and monk kits in your game.

 

I posted it as a mod template somewhere over on the EE forums - like the spell school and saving throw templates I posted here - so anyone can use it in their mods. Next time I'm at my computer I'll find it and put it up here.