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Should Gavin be corruptible in SoA?


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Poll: PC influence on alignment

Should Gavin befriend/romance an evil PC?

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Would you like to be able to provoke Gavin to a crisis of faith and possibly an alignment change, even if you knew you might not like how it ended?

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Do you feel that allowing such a PC option would weaken Gavin's credibility?

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#16 Domi

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Posted 03 January 2007 - 06:59 PM

Just don't try to convert us, Druids :)
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#17 BigRob

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Posted 03 January 2007 - 07:29 PM

I'd add my vote that Gavin attempting to convert the PC to goodness would be a great thread for the character to follow.

This could even be part of a romance situation, where Gavin likes the PC initially but comes to realise that she's evil (hey, you can't tell someone's evil just by looking at them). This works especially well if the PC is not cruel to Gavin in the initial stages, thus showing that she's not completely irredeemable.

Many of the "evil" options in the BG games are based on selfishness as well, rather than outright malevolence, so if a PC being a bit grabby about rewards is the kind of thing that Gavin can tolerate just a bit, that makes it even easier.


In terms of warning the player that their PC may be turned to good by Gavin, I don't think it'll be a problem for accidental installers if the options that make the PC good are fairly clear, like:


Gavin: Now do you see why you can't kick puppies?

PC: 1. Of course, how could I be so cruel! (PC increments to good)
2. But... they're so bouncy! (PC stays where they are)
3. [Lie] Oh yes. I can't hurt the lovely puppies. (PC increments to evil)
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#18 berelinde

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Posted 03 January 2007 - 07:41 PM

Don't know how I feel about him trying to convert druids. That's another of those things that I liked about 3E: druids didn't have to be true neutral. He's going to have a lot of respect for druids, as fellow followers of nature deities, but he's got some alignment issues that could best be summarized by the following banter preview between Jaheira and Gavin:

GAVIN: ~You know, Jaheira, that glare of yours is really quite unsettling.~
JAHEIRA: ~How old are you, Gavin?~
GAVIN: ~Eight and twenty, or thereabouts. What has that got to do with anything?~
JAHEIRA: ~And after all those years, you are still as green as a youth fresh from his mother's arms.~
GAVIN: ~I am not sure I agree with you. What do you mean by that?~
JAHEIRA: ~You still really believe in the inherrent goodness of people, don't you? A wiser man might have lost that illusion. It is the nature of all creatures to seek balance, not goodness.~
GAVIN: ~You mistake optimism for innocence. I *want* to believe that people are good at heart, but I know that many are not.~
JAHEIRA: ~And where does balance fit into your philosophy?~
GAVIN: ~I am not sure it does. I do not know if anyone can walk that razor's edge, never setting foot on either side. Those that try probably get there by averages, stepping first one way, then another to compensate.~
JAHEIRA: ~But that is still serving the balance.~
GAVIN: ~No, it is serving each side by turns. For me, one side is abhorrent, so I walk on the other.~
JAHEIRA: ~And another might walk on the side you do not choose. The overall balance is still served, and that is what is important.~

But look on the bright side: If Gavin tries to convert you, you can always tell him to take a hike.

Edit: funny what you catch when something is up on the screen and not surrounded by a lot of code.

Edited by berelinde, 03 January 2007 - 09:12 PM.

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#19 Gorilym

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Posted 04 January 2007 - 02:25 AM

Voted for the possibility of corruption-via-charisma, but the concept of Gavin potentially redeeming an evil PC actually sounds more intriguing.

(hey, you can't tell someone's evil just by looking at them).

Well.... Being a cleric, couldn't he just cast 'detect evil'? :)

But... they're so bouncy!

:hm:

Edited by Gorilym, 04 January 2007 - 02:28 AM.


#20 berelinde

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Posted 04 January 2007 - 05:47 AM

This is what I've got *planned* for SoA.

Overall:

Simultaneous development for SoA and ToB, but won’t require it.

Banters: with every BioWare NPC, crossmod can be implemented later, if there’s interest.

Friendship track: available to any alignment, but evil pc responses are going to eventually alienate Gavin. If he feels that he’s being used to further evil ends, he’s going to leave. PC alignment won’t change, but PC had better not act evil around him.

Continuation of BG1 committed romance track: only for good PCs, since these will have been the only ones he will have romanced in BG1. Marriage and a quest, not necessarily in that order.

BG2 romance track: available to any alignment. Gavin’s courtship of a good PC will follow a familiar path, but it won’t look much like the one from BG1. Gavin’s courtship of an evil or neutral PC will be different. He’s going to attempt to win the PC over to the light. It’s going to get messy if he develops feelings for the pc before this happens.

Features that will continue:
Friendship and romance can be put on hold or resumed by selecting a PID option. Flirting is optional and can be toggled on or off at will. It will be able to restart most broken relationships via PID.

Gavin will be able to be sent to the Temple of Lathander in Athkatla. He can find his way back alone from Spellhold, but not the City of Caverns or the Underdark. Whether or not he is willing to rejoin the party after that will depend on how he feels about the pc and whether or not he has promised anything to the PC as a friend or as a lover.

Edited by berelinde, 04 January 2007 - 06:41 AM.

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#21 Domi

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Posted 04 January 2007 - 12:35 PM

It's a tall order, but I think it's also very flexible and allows for a number of different PCs to enjoy the romance. And don't worry about 'pressing" PC. As long as you can discourage Gavin - though maybe not with puppies :) - there will be no "forcing" anything. Heh, my favoprite game would be where the relationships develop "naturally" and as long as you have a friendship track - which you plan - the player would not feel "punished" if the romance doesn't work out. That last is the most important thing for me in the romances. Romance should not "force" the player to chose just one "correct" answer in order for PC to get some dialogue or a relationship going with the PC.
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#22 berelinde

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Posted 10 January 2007 - 06:30 AM

Short version: Gavin won't romance evil clerics

Long version:
Been thinking about some of the implications of Gavin's positive influence on the PC. If the PC is a cleric of Talos, or if she and Gavin discuss religion and it turns out that she is the cleric of an evil god, Gavin's going to have to back off and limit his efforts to mitigating the PC's actions.

In the Forgotten Realms, most people can change their patron deities with little consequence, but not so for clerics. They lose their ability to cast spells and are forced to undergo quite an ordeal to regain their status. AFAIK, this is a PnP thing, but I see no reason to perpetuate BioWare's disregard of PnP rules for the sake of advancing the story.

Even if it were possible, and I am not certain that it is, I would not want to have to strip a PC of her ability to use her class abilities, nor would I want to have to write the quest necessary for her to regain them under the worship of another god. Besides, it's a dirty trick. I don't think the players who might appreciate this feature would be numerous enough for me to go through the effort of implementation. I'd rather focus my energy elsewhere.
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#23 BigRob

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Posted 10 January 2007 - 08:22 PM

In the Forgotten Realms, most people can change their patron deities with little consequence, but not so for clerics. They lose their ability to cast spells and are forced to undergo quite an ordeal to regain their status. AFAIK, this is a PnP thing, but I see no reason to perpetuate BioWare's disregard of PnP rules for the sake of advancing the story.


Actually, by doing this you're sticking to the "story" of the Forgotten Realms quite closely (rules aren't always things to be ignored). And from what you've written about Gavin, I would have thought that love would be the last thing on his mind when confronted with someone who says "I've dedicated my life and soul to Talos, whose joy is the destruction and agony of all life."
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#24 Domi

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Posted 10 January 2007 - 08:48 PM

Fair enough, but what about a kitless evil cleric?
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#25 berelinde

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Posted 11 January 2007 - 03:22 AM

Way ahead of you. :)

Class(Player1,CLERIC_ALL) Alignment(Player1,MASK_EVIL) will get all clerics of Talos *and* all kitless evil clerics.

As for clerics of gods who allow neutral clerics but not good ones, Gavin is going to want to know about which god the PC worships early on, since he never discussed religion with someone he did not befriend in BG1. It's easy enough to add some options for gods who fit that category, and terminate any relationship that forms should the cleric answer something like Shar.
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#26 Domi

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Posted 11 January 2007 - 09:10 AM

That's pretty neat, but you are setting yourself up for a lot of work! The list of FR deities is looooong, and if you'd take into account the racial pantheons as well. Damn, you are heroic!
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#27 Minarvia

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Posted 11 January 2007 - 02:18 PM

That's pretty neat, but you are setting yourself up for a lot of work! The list of FR deities is looooong, and if you'd take into account the racial pantheons as well. Damn, you are heroic!



No kidding. This is one serious undertaking. Berelinde, have I told you lately you are a hero in my book? Wow! :)

#28 berelinde

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Posted 11 January 2007 - 03:25 PM

It doesn't have to be much more than a little research. He's going to want to find out if a cleric can be good and not incurr the wrath of her god. If yes, relationship continues. If no, well, no.

Clumsy fingers today. Burned an important one for typing, so typing too slow for a full reply.

What am I saying? This is a great opportunity to have one lovetalk that will work for anyone mapped out. Yeah, it will be a lot of work, but it means that at least one LT will make sense! Gavin and a good PC talk about religion: not surprising in a new relationship, kind of surprising in an established one, so probably won't have it there. Gavin and a neutral PC talk about religion: potentially an excellent opportunity to do something subtle and cool. Gavin and an evil PC talk about religion: I'm going to have to handle it carefully, but it could work. But maybe *not* like this:

GAVIN: If I may ask a very personal question of you, <CHARNAME>, whom do you worship?
PC: Velsharoon.
GAVIN: Oh... Can I tell you about Lathander?

Edited by berelinde, 11 January 2007 - 04:22 PM.

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#29 cmorgan

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Posted 11 January 2007 - 07:13 PM

Coool idea - hmmm. How to do with minimum fuss...

CHAIN ~gavin~ GavinLoversList
~startingline~
== ~otherNPCCleric~ IF ~InParty/etc
== ~gavin~
END
IF ~Class(Player1,CLERIC_ALL) Alignment(Player1,MASK_EVIL)~ THEN EXTERN Gavin'sLover'sListEvil
IF ~Class(Player1,CLERIC_ALL) Alignment(Player1,LAWFUL_NEUTRAL )~ THEN EXTERN Gavin'sLover'sListLAWFUL_NEUTRAL
IF ~Class(Player1,CLERIC_ALL) Alignment(Player1,LAWFUL_GOOD)~ THEN EXTERN Gavin'sLover'sListLAWFUL_GOOD
LAWFUL_NEUTRAL
NEUTRAL_GOOD
NEUTRAL
CHAOTIC_GOOD
CHAOTIC_NEUTRAL
IF ~!Class(Player1,CLERIC_ALL)~ THEN REPLY ~Not interested in the topic~ EXIT

CHAIN IF ~~ THEN ~gavin~ Gavin'sLover'sListLAWFUL_GOOD
~goodguys always win whom do you follow?~
END
++ ~good diety 1~ + GoodDiety1
++ ~good diety 2~ + GoodDiety2
++ ~good diety 3~ + GoodDiety3

Then a big CHAIN or set of reply states for all the potential FR dieties you want to deal with specifically for each alignment - or do you want to use the branching dialogues technique and run them all back into three pattern responses (one for L, one for C, one for N) ?

Edited by cmorgan, 11 January 2007 - 07:17 PM.

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#30 berelinde

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Posted 11 January 2007 - 10:13 PM

The initial part might go like that, but a lot of FR deities have spheres of influence that cover more than just alignment. Not an issue with kitted clerics, because they are funneled into their kit by alignment, or more correctly, the other way around. I have no guarantee that the player is using the 2E rule that cleric alignment must match deity alignment. For kitless clerics, there's no way to enforce it. If a player has decided that her cleric is going to worship, say, Silvanus, but be Neutral Evil, I don't want them to slip through the cracks.

It will probably be more along the lines of:

GAVIN: Whom do you serve?
++ A god of nature.
++ A god of magic
+ Race + One of the gods of my people
++ A god of war or fighting
++ A god of knowledge or craft
++ A merciful god
++ A cruel god
++ A god of death
etc.

The idea is to come up with 20 or less categories to catch all the gods in groups of 20 or less. Some gods might appear on more than one list. For example, Velsharoon would appear under magic, death, and "a cruel god." From there, Gavin would probably try to find some kind of a leading comment that might bring up the possibility of an alignment change. If the god in question would be unlikely to ever accept good clerics, like Valsharoon, then Gavin would let it drop and the relationship would end. If the player wasn't a cleric, Gavin might try a little gentle nudge here to suggest a kinder god with a similar sphere who *does* allow good followers. In the case of Velsharoon (damn bandages won't let me type!), Gavin might mention a few aspects of Mystra. The player can 1) express a desire to hear more, in which case the conversation proceeds 2) express boredom with the converstaion, in which case it ends 3) offer a contradicting statement, which Gavin will attempt to counter, or 4) tell Gavin to shut the hells up and mind his own business.

Clerics of incompatible gods will get their own response, which kills the relationship.

Positive responses will increase a variable that counts toward an alignment change, neutral ones do nothing, negative ones decrease the variable.

This isn't something that's going to happen overnight. An evil player who wants some lovin' from Gavin had better be prepared to spend a long time in Chapters 2 and 3! Or I should allow that path to progress throught the underdark.
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