BG: Canon NPCs vs. Mod NPCs

[joshuar9476]

this thread has definitely been an interesting read, even if for getting into the mind of some of the more well known NPC modders out there ... currently i'm debating whether to run through BGT with TS and the Sime romance or without TS and the Jaheira romance (which I've never done) ... i only get about two runs a year on BGT, so the decision is a tough one that this thread really didn't assist in ...

[Jarno Mikkola]

this thread has definitely been an interesting read, even if for getting into the mind of some of the more well known NPC modders out there ... currently i'm debating whether to run through BGT with TS and the Sime romance or without TS and the Jaheira romance (which I've never done) ... i only get about two runs a year on BGT, so the decision is a tough one that this thread really didn't assist in ...

Erhm, you can have both of them, just copy the whole clean and patched game folder and do as the answer #8 in here says.

[jcompton]

I like the Canon NPCs because they're a colorful bunch with a wide range of personalities...while the Mod NPCs tend to form "clusters" of favored races/classes/personalities. Not that you can blame people for having their preferences (especially when it comes to romance mods), but variety is the spice of life.

 

Can you expand on this a bit? Which clusters do you perceive?

 

I'm not denying that there may be some, but the first three romance mods to hit the streets (Solaufein, Tashia, Kelsey) were characters with very different personalities. Or do you mean they were clustered in that "two are elves" and "two are sorcerers"?

[Domi]

Oh, no, not Sime's romance!

 

EDIT: I think the amount of author in an NPC diminishes greatly with every next NPC undertaken. It's either that, or I am beyond help where the multiple personality disorder is concerned.

[joshuar9476]

Oh, no, not Sime's romance!

 

why? can you elaborate?

[Domi]

It's weak writing of a beginner, with a patchy quality control. I've never had a good handle on the character and hadn't yet been through the BG1NPC school. Looking back, I am not happy with it.

[cmorgan]

If I have to have one more overly self-important pity-party for an NPC while I'm sitting here soulless, so help me, I will smite someone. For Helm. And then I shall suffer a -2 to reputation by frolicking on their ashes in public as the slayer. DO ~SetGlobal("ViviCompassion","GLOBAL",0)~

Vivi, notice and fair warning - I am stealing this and rewriting it a bit (but not much). I'll make sure you are in the credits

 

I don't know about the <>= discussion, because the pertinent points have been made - time, resources, game evolution, and paid professional/volunteer amateur make it really hard compare. I find Dynaheir in BG1NPC just about the strongest story I have had in a computer game; the original character was pretty cool, but Domi made her live in my brain. Keto made me forgive Bioware (almost) for wiping out Dy. The styles are completely different, the characterizations dissimilar, but both fit themselves in and around the storyline in ways that made me want to play through the game and see different results. I am not sure I can find a 'fair' comparison between those two NPC mods and the BioWare team; people on both sides set out to do a great job, but one side was hampered by all sorts of restrictions (but at the same time paid professionals with direct access to the game development process) and the other had to figure out everything from how to intert dialog to fundamental character development within the confines of a pre-established, popular game. I think that really means we are not comparing two football teams - more like comparing two separate and radically different sports (say, water polo and rugby. Yes, everyone gets wet and bruised and in the end there is a winner, but apart from that and an occasional illegal elbowing, hard to make valid comparisons).

 

But... the same sets of storytelling standards get applied in the real world, regardless of the background. I have trouble with NPC mods that take over center stage and make decisions for the player. I am not so thrilled with playing them, but I can respect that someone has put a huge amount of time into creating their vision. I'll play for awhile with them but usually only to restart when an NPC starts taking over (or just dump them and get another for the serious playthrough). So all that 'two sports' analogy gets thrown out when I have a playthrough - I just want good content that entertains me and doesn't seem to upset the game world I have built up in my own mind.

 

The idea that a modder would choose to try to beat BioWare is an interesting one. I don't really want to see content that seems to be more about trying to out-write or compete than adding to the overall story. But I can see that comparison as a useful tool if someone is trying to push themselves, in the same way authors jump into other author's universes and take new angles (In Service Of The Sword or all those Foundation other-author short stories; Honor Harrington and Asimov's Foundation stuff). At the same time, is good writing a product of competition? I am not sure Tolkien, Drake, or Jordan would agree. Dickens might - but then again, he was paid by the word.

[jcompton]

The idea that a modder would choose to try to beat BioWare is an interesting one. I don't really want to see content that seems to be more about trying to out-write or compete than adding to the overall story.

 

You're acting like it's a novel concept when it is in fact the premise of so many popular mods. Take the first truly successful and widely-adopted mod, Ascension, an attempt to implement a superior endgame to the one that shipped with the game. Or any number of tactical upgrade mods, an attempt to provide superior AI/combat experiences. I'd even argue that endeavors like UB are an attempt at "better." (unless you think Pai'Na is "better" just kinda randomly hanging around with a surprise line of dialogue...)

 

And, oh yeah, a little thing called the G3 Fixpack.

[Silver]

I have trouble with NPC mods that take over center stage and make decisions for the player. I am not so thrilled with playing them, but I can respect that someone has put a huge amount of time into creating their vision. I'll play for awhile with them but usually only to restart when an NPC starts taking over (or just dump them and get another for the serious playthrough).

 

I'm glad I'm not the only one who noticed some mods change the story from 'Bhaalspawn Saga' into 'NPC Saga... with some Bhaalspawn along the way'.

 

Best mods I played so far used the world provided and didn't use creatures from different worlds/dimensions/planes of existence. When the world of origin is different and the NPC spends hours and hours on explaining every detail of their homeworld, it gets... I'm not even sure how to put it into words, but it makes PC look uninteresting, yenno? I mean she's just a Bhaalspawn, but she's like everyone else here - but *put name of NPC*, he/she is from another realm. Exciting!

 

Or maybe that's just me clinging to the idea that when I play a game set in Toril, I wanna learn more about Toril, not Divine Fields of the Realm of Greater Smiting. Call it being old fashioned.

 

The idea that a modder would choose to try to beat BioWare™ is an interesting one. I don't really want to see content that seems to be more about trying to out-write or compete than adding to the overall story.

 

I'm on the opposite side of that fence. BG2 is a good game, but the modders sometimes add a lot by using their ideas to improve the game.

And I'm nostalgic, too. If it wasn't for the modders we wouldn't have PiD's - something that (back in the days when I first bought the game and there were no mods yet) I felt the game was missing entirely.

 

 

(/wall of text)

[cmorgan]

I guess I read the topic too narrowly - from the idea of a mod-added NPC, and modder motivation

 

In a more global perspective, I agree SCS = better than BioWare. Oversight, Fixpack, BG2 Tweaks, UB, even though I see them more as cleanup/fixes/extensions, could all be looked at from the perspective of "improvement or customization of game rules = better". And I think I see the point in these cases, where a modder says "hey... I can fix this/make this better". The obvious implication is "better than the game as shipped", which can logically be extended to "better than BioWare".

 

I still just have two gut feelings that refuse to match up with this argument. The first is that I don't really see the target of comparison being the company or the pro authors, but the game content; one-upping is an external validation of ego that would never get fulfilled (no official contest between company and individual). The second is that even in technical mods (and especially in NPC-adding mods), the ones I most respect are much more internally focussed. Fixpack discussions don't seem to feel like "us compared to them", they feel like "we can fix this way 1, or way 2". And most of the NPC mods seem much more about character than about "Anomen was a badly designed NPC, so I rewrote him, made him better, and you can tell I am better than Gaider, so I win!".

 

I do get your point, I think, JCompton; I guess I just keep coming back to feeling like mods are building blocks extending the core game not because people thought they were better than the original writers and designers, but because the product of the original was immersive enough that their imagination and excitement was engaged. (then again, perhaps I am projecting what I feel instead of what actual motivations are out there).

[Daulmakan]

(unless you think Pai'Na is "better" just kinda randomly hanging around with a surprise line of dialogue...)

Your general point aside, having an enchanted sword break by accident doesn't precisely scream "better" to me. If you want to praise UB, you should mention Kala's lamp quest.

[berelinde]

I'm glad I'm not the only one who noticed some mods change the story from 'Bhaalspawn Saga' into 'NPC Saga... with some Bhaalspawn along the way'.

Regarding the "NPC Saga" effect, the affection a player has for the NPC has a strong bearing on player perception. Where the player likes the NPC, the NPC's comments, observations on the game world, and quest content are all welcome and entertaining. Where there is less affection, the player starts to wonder if the NPC is ever going to shut up. Kivan is one of my favorite NPCs. He has more interjections than just about any other NPC in existence, but I don't mind because I like him. There is another, extremely popular NPC that I initially liked somewhat, but was not wild about. That NPC has more interjections than Kivan and is one of those that has to win every banter. Mild affection rapidly turned into intense dislike. I'm constantly amazed that other people are so enchanted by an NPC that seems to me to be so overbearing, but there's no accounting for taste.

 

An unrelated anectdote: Years ago, I wasn't too well-informed about installing mods. So, when my fiance and I used to play multiplayer together, his was the host computer and we had different mods installed. At the time, Kelsey was the only NPC mod on my computer, and somehow, Kelsey's line about Anomen carving the pillars of the High Hall with a butterknife played in place of a really, really common game sound. I was hearing it about every ten minutes. I realize this was my fault for not understanding how to play in multiplayer mode with mods installed, but it put me off Kelsey.

[the bigg]

Regarding the "NPC Saga" effect, the affection a player has for the NPC has a strong bearing on player perception.

Some NPCs do actually force you to follow a given quest order and/or that you follow a certain path through quests - which is where the NPC Saga effect gets jarring (although I suspect the NPC I'm thinking about is by the same author as the one you were thinking about).

 

Camdawg once mentioned that Delainy/Durleye had so many interjections that he used TP2-fu to disable at random all but 1/4 of them, to keep their number non-overbearing - I don't know if he was joking, though

[Silver]

Some NPCs do actually force you to follow a given quest order and/or that you follow a certain path through quests - which is where the NPC Saga effect gets jarring.

 

Agreed there. It's very annoying when the missions don't even fit the world of the game - or seem to be more epic and important than the actual story of our dear CHARNAME. Saving the world from ultimate evil just because the NPC is on that quest and the like.

 

There is another, extremely popular NPC that I initially liked somewhat, but was not wild about. That NPC has more interjections than Kivan and is one of those that has to win every banter. Mild affection rapidly turned into intense dislike. I'm constantly amazed that other people are so enchanted by an NPC that seems to me to be so overbearing, but there's no accounting for taste.

 

Story of my life concerning a few over-winning NPCs but I think I know which mod you mean. One that I actually can't stand.

 

btw, I wish a certain NPC didn't react to 'no' with a 'ok you'll never see me again *leaves party*

[berelinde]

Camdawg once mentioned that Delainy/Durleye had so many interjections that he used TP2-fu to disable at random all but 1/4 of them, to keep their number non-overbearing - I don't know if he was joking, though

Wow, that would be really, really cool.

 

After finally getting off my ass and fixing the bugs in Haldamir, I had to test him. I was apalled at his interjection frequency. What was I thinking? And then cmorgan came up with this brilliant idea with Aran to allow the player to disable interjections via PID. I stole it and used it in BG2 Gavin. If the player likes, she can tell him to keep his opinions to himself and that will block all but the most absolutely essential interjections, places where he would have to say something or risk being totally out of character. One day, I'll go back and add that feature to Haldamir. Possibly when I release the ToB portion.

 

Some NPCs do actually force you to follow a given quest order and/or that you follow a certain path through quests

Yes, and sometimes, it's annoying. I don't know if we're talking about the same mod, since I don't recall any forced decisions in it, but it's been a while. Besides, the specific mod doesn't matter. It's the concept. I'm on the fence about the paladin objection to thieves. It's inconvenient, but there is some logic to it. I could allow Gavin to stay with a PC who allied herself to Bodhi because he is capable of understanding sacrifice for the greater good, but paladins live in a black-and-white world.

 

I think I know which mod you mean...

You don't. And that's my point: for every player, it will be a different mod.