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SR V4 final


kreso

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- Flesh to Stone will kill the target after 5 rounds have passed if not cured

 

 

I hate this change, mainly because it goes against what the game tells us about how petrification effects work like.

In the BG series being turned to stone does not kill you. Branwen, the girl in the Temple area and the party in BG are all more or less fine after being released.

 

You say the main reason for this change is to prevent situations where solo players get stuck, but how is the death screen not showing up more immersion breaking than a petrified character just dropping dead after 5 rounds, even if you ignore my first point?

 

Maybe you could solve the solo/death problem by adding a domination effect, that should also cause the game to end if there are no other player characters.

 

 

Ice Storm is still deflected :) . It's only 3 rounds, so I let it be.

 

 

 

This seems very inconsistent to me. Not a big fan of having "general rules" like what does and does not get deflected change on a spell by spell basis, possibly without any ingame information about it.

 

 

+ 4 AC/Thac0, 20 HP and Fear immunity isn't enough to warrant a 6th level slot?

 

 

Probably good enough, but is it interesting enough and fits thematically?

It just looks a bit boring to me and also like something that's more on the cleric side than what mages should do.

Edited by Ulb
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Ah, I did not realize that a stationery AoE effect would trigger the SD every round - I figured it would only do it once. In that case, I would also suggest removing Ice Storm and Web and other stationery effects from the AoE SD list, unless you want to specifically note in each spell's description that they are not subject to SD (or noting in each spell that IS affected by SD that they are), in which case, fair enough.

 

@Ulb: Uh, I did not even notice that the post said "kill" - only saw the 5 round bit. Yeah, that's gonna be a no from me, dog. I understand that petrification was not implemented perfectly in this game, and that SR's attempt at fixing it is also not perfect, but I am not really in favor of its wholesale removal.

Edited by Bartimaeus
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@kreso, have you any deadline?

 

As I don't want to get myself misunderstood, I ask you because I am polishing the next 1PP version and decided not to provide full compatibility with SR and IR because it seems pointless and not worthy working on compatibility with beta mods that release new versions every couple of days. imo compatibility with those kinds of mods must be dealt with fixpack patches.

 

But according to your first post, SR won't be beta anymore "very soon". Does it mean a couple of days, a few weeks, or more...?

Depending on your answer, I might make a break and wait for SR final release to work on a solid compatibility.

Edited by Gwendolyne
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@Gwendolyne

 

I've already made the changes, but I didn't want to upload anything since I wanted to discuss some stuff (hence why I posted the proposed change-log).

Also, this "final" version would include Mike's and Grammarsalad's work with ADD_SPELL as posted here.

I'd include some of Bartimaeus' fixes from SRR (hopefully he's ok with it @Bartimaeus?); I haven't yet checked all of it.

 

@Ulb, @Bartimaeus

 

If you have better suggestions for petrification handling, say. In vanilla, petrified PCs would often crash for no reason, and any damage would crash the statue.

Domination will end the game, yes, but that's hardly a solution. What if you're not soloing and don't have means to cure petrification? Why would someone be dominated after being stoned?

 

Ice Storm

- heh. everybody loves this spell it seems. I agree, making some spells work in a certain way should be more consistent....how about I make it a 1-round spell, as in PnP? 3d6 crusing + 2d6 cold, removing the movement speed malus alltogether? Szopped by deflection as a 4th level spell.

 

Daring tought - leave all clouds deflected, but make them have less "ticks"? AI usually tries to run away from such spells, but there are times it's fairly impossible for them to do so.

 

@Ulb

Greater Heroism is a 6th level mage spell in PnP. Browsing through spells, most of the other options are either bad, some could work but only on EE so I opted for this. There's also the issue of spell icon. For this I could use something already in game.

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@kreso, have you any deadline?

 

As I don't want to get myself misunderstood, I ask you because I am polishing the next 1PP version and decided not to provide full compatibility with SR and IR because it seems pointless and not worthy working on compatibility with beta mods that release new versions every couple of days. imo compatibility with those kinds of mods must be deal by fixpack patches.

While I fully understand you concerns, you can safely assume that:

a) there is no one who will contribute such patches to Fixpack anymore

b) Fixpack is not for providing compatibility for mods when both mods are in active development

 

I think the 'full/perfect' compatibility is not required for initial mod release, there will be findings later anyway.

Edited by ALIENQuake
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kreso,

 

first of all, nice to see you again and thanks for working on these final versions of IR and SR. I believe it is a wonderful community effort we are witnessing here and I am particularly grateful to Bartimaeus for carrtying the Revisions torch when it was darkest with his Revised releases.

 

About the change-log, what I personally like a lot:

 

- the "berserk" effect for Insect Plague

 

and what I don't:

 

- Flesh to Stone killing within 5 rounds

 

I think the initial idea is good but I would develop it differently: possibly a series of cumulative effects applying on the target which culminate in turning into stone. Each round the target's total movement would be impaired by a fixed amount until it becomes zero at round 5 (10%, 20%, 40%, 75%, 100%). Also an increasing malus to Dexterity (-1. -2, -4. -6 and -8) and additional penalty to both THAC0 and casting time (to be discussed), also becoming increasingly harsh.

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Casting speed penalty I ain't gonna implement, anywhere. It's too detrimental for AI.

Movement speed penalty seems fine for as long as it doesn't go to 0 (that ends up looking bad)

. but---

Free Action effects usually carry "immunity to effect = ms modifier". So in this instance, Free Action would prevent this effect while the others would go through.

Is it really killing the creature affected that bad? Do note that you could revive him, no romance would break, no loot would be lost etc. And you still got a window of time to depetrify him.

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The problem with that is that:

 

1) It sort of duplicates the "Dying" effect

 

2) It goes against the game's lore where petrified characters are NOT dead

 

3) It does not escalate but just apply an effect after 5 round

 

Overall, not really appealing. On top of that, it would remove any kind of resemblance with the original spell so that its name "Flesh to Stone" would not even make much sense anymore.

 

I can see why Free Action may be a problem with my suggested solution though but perhaps we could work around it by changing the carried Weight of the target to achieve a similar effect in two steps, rather than five.

Edited by Salk
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changing the carried Weight of the target to achieve a similar effect in two steps, rather than five.

I see no way of doing this.

 

 

I can leave the spell as it is (i.e. no death) or I can delay the death further. For now, it seems all dislike the "kill" idea, so I may as well roll with no kill option.

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I am polishing the next 1PP version and decided not to provide full compatibility with SR and IR because it seems pointless and not worthy working on compatibility with beta mods that release new versions every couple of days. imo compatibility with those kinds of mods must be dealt with fixpack patches.

 

:laugh: at the idea that SR snd IR are "betas that get updated every couple days." These mods get new "beta" updates more rarely than most mods get proper updates.

 

Ice Storm

- heh. everybody loves this spell it seems. I agree, making some spells work in a certain way should be more consistent....how about I make it a 1-round spell, as in PnP? 3d6 crusing + 2d6 cold, removing the movement speed malus alltogether? Szopped by deflection as a 4th level spell.

This is a fine idea. But why remove the movemebt speed penalty? Why not instant damage plus 3-round slowed movement? Plenty of spells work that way.

 

What's so bad about casting speed penalties? As long as it's done carefully and doesn't stack it seems fine. I mean look at Slow:

- big movement soeed penalty

- big AC penalty

- big APR penalty

- MASSIVE casting speed penalty

 

... and it's a 3rd-level spell, and has a huge penalty to the saving throw to avoid it. It's outrageously powerful. This is what higher-level AoE spells should be balanced against.

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@Ulb, @Bartimaeus

 

If you have better suggestions for petrification handling, say. In vanilla, petrified PCs would often crash for no reason, and any damage would crash the statue.

Domination will end the game, yes, but that's hardly a solution. What if you're not soloing and don't have means to cure petrification? Why would someone be dominated after being stoned?

 

Petrification should not have a limited duration but, in any case, the domination effect would obviously have the same duration as the other effects and be removed by the same spells. I can't see any downside to my solution. It will emulate the game-over effect of the original FtS while having virtually no negative downside, allowing SR to keep a version of FtS that's actually in line with the game lore and what player's could reasonable expect from a spell with that name.

 

*edit* Without looking it up, I'm not sure if there is an opcode that the player usually can't get protection from. If there is not, players protected from domination would obviously pose a problem to my solution...

Edited by Ulb
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Hey Kreso, good to see you.

 

I want to talk about Contagion. I noticed that right now it overwrites Rigid Thinking in Non-IWDEE games. Right now, I'm ADD_SPELLing it in IWDEE so it gets added in that game. Honestly, I'm not sure why it is not overwriting Rigid Thinking in IWDEE, but I'm thinking that it should either overwrite Rigid Thinking in all games or just be ADD_SPELLed in all games.

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@Ulb

 

I don't understand what's the differnece in case you're solo. Domination = instant death = stoning = permanent hold = feeblemind etc. In all cases, it's game over.

I can get around permanent/item equiped immunities, that's not an issue.

 

@Grammarsalad

Likewise.

 

Mike contacted me about your work with ADD_SPELL, when I'm done with SR base (and EE stuff....I've just spent 2 hours delving into code and fixing stuff..meh) we should merge our work.

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@Ulb

 

I don't understand what's the differnece in case you're solo. Domination = instant death = stoning = permanent hold = feeblemind etc. In all cases, it's game over.

I can get around permanent/item equiped immunities, that's not an issue.

 

@Grammarsalad

Likewise.

 

Mike contacted me about your work with ADD_SPELL, when I'm done with SR base (and EE stuff....I've just spent 2 hours delving into code and fixing stuff..meh) we should merge our work.

Sounds good. I will hopefully be done with the bulk of it today. The only stuff I've done in addition to ADD_SPELL is this:

 

- Added scroll bam icon for Wiz protection from elements. I got the BAM from IWDEE.
- 4th level d.jump (spwi402.spl) disabled for IWDEE, etc. It was selectable at character creation in IWDEE Heart of Winter though by the description it should only be a 1st level spell.
- 4th level monster summoning II disabled for IWDEE, etc. Same reason as D. Jump.

 

I'll keep Contagion as it is for now unless I hear otherwise.

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changing the carried Weight of the target to achieve a similar effect in two steps, rather than five.

I see no way of doing this.

 

 

I can leave the spell as it is (i.e. no death) or I can delay the death further. For now, it seems all dislike the "kill" idea, so I may as well roll with no kill option.

 

I think it is possible to do it using TobEX Opcode 318: "Modmakers can set the damage type percentage modifiers and weight allowance modifiers using this effect opcode. Also refer to the Scripting Stats section."

 

Alternatively, setting STR to low enough values will achieve a similar effect and should be quite easy: both DEX and STR could decrease of a fixed percentage (25%?) each round (1 to 4) with target turned to stone at round 5. Saving throws may be allowed each round to see whether the additional DEX and STR affliction would apply.

Edited by Salk
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