Revised Potions

[Demivrgvs]

UNTESTED BETA

Available here:

This untested, yet-to-be-proofread beta version of the component is now available for you to install and possibly enjoy. Please report any bugs, typos, or opinions in this thread.

 

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The whole discussion started here, and I already have a good amount of feedback (Ardanis post hugely helped me while working on my current beta version of this component) but I prefer to have a dedicated topic for such an important matter.

 

Before posting the individual potion effects (which we already discussed in the above mentioned link) there are quite a few global aspects I'd like to pin on top of the discussion.

 

 

Global changes

 

Potion vs. Dispel

As of now effects granted by potions are always successfully dispelled because their supposed 'caster level' is considered '1'. That may not be a big issue in vanilla, but it makes most of them pretty useless under SCS imo, and most of all it doesn't seem right from a roleplaying point of view (IMO).

 

Almost quoting Jarno I'd say that:

- using a potion and casting a spell are two quite different things because the former is consumed/inbibed, the latter is cast upon a target;

- potions don't rely on the user's skills like scrolls do, nor on user's level like spells do;

- potion can be brewed by non-spellcasters, and their effects may simulate various spells but are of alchemical nature, not magical

 

Thus I'm making potion's effects undispellable. Most of you voted for it, but if anyone (e.g. DavidW) is strongly against it for a good reason I'm open as always to discuss it.

 

 

"Detectable" Potions

The way potions are coded within IR v3 will make them detectable with correct secondary types. This means Potion of Invisibility's effect is correctly considered an 'illusionary protection', Potion of Fire Protection's effect is a 'specific protection' removable with Breach, Potion of Magic Blocking's effect is a 'spell protection' removable by Spellstrike, and so on.

 

In vanilla the only string displayed when a character drinked a potion was "gulp!", but now a string will show which potion has been used by the creature (just like it happens for spells). I can remove this "unrealistic" feature, but I'd actually keep it for gameplay reasons.

 

 

Potions & Wizard Slayers

The way we handle potions I do think there's no reason for such class to not be able to use them, even within vanilla's rules for this kit. IR's potions aren't magical devices but alchemical mixtures.

 

Now, I never thought anyone could be against thieves being able to use wands as per PnP, which means someone may be against this too, thus if Mike has any interest in this matter we may opt for making such feature optional.

 

 

Potion Prices

Many players complained about vanilla's prices, and consider most potions really too expensive. I do agree in most cases, and I'll try to revise all prices (with your help) in order to make them a little more affordable, and more adeguate compared to the effects (e.g. Potions of Healing are indeed too expensive considering the relatively small effect, but Potion of Magic Blocking deserves to be uber-expensive) while keeping an eye on the balance.

 

In the end players will probably have and use considerably more potions than in vanilla, hopefully matching the amount of potions SCS opponents usually carry with themselves. This may slightly lower the difficulty of some encounters, but not excessively imo because of two things: a) money and b) "non-stackability".

a) most potions will still cost 200-400gp each, and the party can't afford to consume potions on each encounter (where the loot probably isn't even enough to buy half those potions back).

b) many potions won't stack with themselves anymore (e.g. Potions of Master Thievery/Perception), and some not even with similar effects/spells.

 

Note: within IR you won't get the easy 50% discount due to high reputation but only a small % discount based on charisma.

 

 

Potion Descriptions

Some potion's descriptions used the following template:

 

"...description...

 

STATISTICS:

 

name_ability_1: ...

name_ability_2: ...

...

duration: ...

 

Usable By:

..."

 

While others (most of them actually) specified everything in the description resulting in the following template:

 

"...description...

 

Usable By:

..."

 

I'm currently going with the latter solution which is much more easy to handle.

 

 

Potion Index

 

Potion of Healing, Extra Healing & Superior Healing

Vanilla potions cured 9, 27, and 40 hp respectively. I've made them cure 10, 30, and 50 hp respectively. An alternative suggested solution was to make them work as Cure Light Wounds, Serious Wounds and Critical Wounds.

 

Vanilla's base prices were 75, 450, and 650 gp respectively. IR's ones are 25, 100 and 200 respectively. This should also help players like me who generally roleplay a lot and don't like to sleep tons of time only to regain lost hps.

 

 

Potion of Regeneration

I've slightly modified it with a higher regeneration rate (6hp/round instead of 2) but slower duration (1 turn instead of 3). Price has been reduced from 500 to 250 gp.

 

 

Antidote & Elixir of Health

Vanilla's base prices were 100, and 250 gp respectively and I think they're fine, though I don't know how many of you find them appealing.

 

I've also made Elixir of Health cure blindness/deafness as per Cure Disease. In theory I'd like the elixir to not cure poisons, in order to make antidote potions more appealing, but I don't know if the AI can handle that (SCS AI does use this potion, and I suppose it gives such effect for granted).

 

 

Potion of Fire Resistance, Potion of Cold Resistance & Potion of Insulation

As per vanilla, but the effects are now undispellable making them much more effective. Duration is reduced from 10 to 5 turns.

 

Vanilla's prices were 400, 250 and 170 gp respectively (quite inconsistent eh?). Currently I'm using 250 for all of them.

 

Note: these effects can now be removed by a Breach spell (and Pierce Shield for SR players).

 

 

Potion of Hill/Stone/Frost/Fire/Cloud/Storm Giant Strength

Despite what I did to the respective items I think these potions may remain as they are, setting strength to a fixed value (19, 20, 21, 22, 23 and 24 respectively) instead of incrementing it. Duration is reduced from 10 to 1 turn.

 

Vanilla's base prices were 300, 500, 750, 1000, 1250 and 1500 gp respectively. I've changed them to 300, 350, 500, 550, 750 and 1000. The difference between STR 19 and 20 or between 21 and 22 is marginal compared to the difference between 20 and 21, 22 and 23, or 23 and 24, and I've reflected this in the prices.

 

 

Note: it's not "quick" but I should be able to make these potions not stack with the respective girdles if necessary (immune to potions while wearing a belt, unable to equip the girdles while under the potion's effect).

 

 

Potion of Invisibility

I've simply modified it to make it detectable as an 'illusionary protection', reduced the base price from 250gp to 150, and reduced the duration from 12 hours to 5 turns.

 

 

Potion of Defense

Vanilla's version set AC to 0, while in PnP this potion has various versions which grant from +1 to +5 bonus to AC.

 

I'm using +4 AC (non-cumulative with itself), and cosmetically it's a "metallic" version of SR's Barkskin (I'm also using Ironskin portrait icon). Duration has been reduced to 5 turns, and price from 700gp to 350.

 

 

Potion of Speed

Previously named Oil of Speed. Oils are applied upon a creature/item (which requires quite some time), they are not imbibed, and in PnP they were clever enough to make it a potion and not an oil.

 

Duration is reduced from 5 turns to 1 turn. Price has been reduced from 500gp to 250.

 

 

Potion of Freedom

I've modified it to make it detectable as 'specific protection', while duration still is 5 turns. This is a rare case where vanilla's price seems too cheap to me. It's 250gp, but I'm raising it to 400.

 

 

Potion of Clarity

I've modified it to make it detectable as 'specific protection'. Price has been reduced from 700gp to 500, while duration still is 5 turns.

 

P.S Ironically it's completely different from PnP, because PnP Potion of Clarity grants True Seeing!

 

 

Potion of Invulnerability

I've made it as per PnP. This potion now grants immunity to normal weapons, and +2 bonus to AC and saves; instead of setting AC to 0 and granting +5 to all saves. The effects last 1 turn instead of 5. Can still be used only by warriors. Vanilla's price was 1200, IR's one is 750.

 

Potion of Master Thievery

In vanilla it granted +40% to Pick Pockets and Open Locks.

 

In PnP it grants various bonuses based on user's level:

Levels 1-3: +20% to all thieving skills, 5d6 temporary hit points gained

Levels 4-6: +16% to all thieving skills, 4d6+1 temporary hit points gained

Levels 7-9: +12% to all thieving skills, 3d6+2 temporary hit points gained

Levels 10-12: +8% to all thieving skills, 2d6+3 temporary hit points gained

Levels 13+: the potion has no effect

 

Within IR it grants +20% to Hide in Shadows, Move Silently, Pick Pockets and Open Lockets is fine. Multiple uses of this potion won't stack anymore. Duration has been reduced from 15 turns to 5. Price has been reduced from 400gp to 200.

 

 

Potion of Perception

In vanilla it granted +20% to Find/Remove traps, Pick pockets, Open Locks, and Hide in shadows.

 

In PnP it grants various bonuses:

+10% to Open Locks and Remove Traps

+20% to Find Traps

reduced chance of being surprised (?)

+25% to Detect Illusions

 

I've opted for +20% to Find/Remove Traps and Detect Illusions, plus 'immunity to backstab' which is very appropriate imo. Multiple uses of these potions won't stack anymore. Duration has been reduced from 30 turns to 5. Price has been reduced from 350gp to 150.

 

 

Oil of Fiery Burning

Completely changed from a lesser Potion of Explosions to something quite unique. User can apply the oil on weapons to deal 1d6 points of fire damage on hit for 10 rounds. Price has been reduced from 500 to 250.

 

 

Potion of Explosions

Making it bypass magic resistance should make it interesting even without raising its damage output (which currently is 6d6). I've changed its base price from 450gp to 250.

 

 

Potion of Firebreath

Isn't 6d10 points of damage too much? Depending on its damage output price should be between 200 and 300gp.

 

 

Potion of Heroism

"This potion is imbued with a powerful enchantment, which blesses the drinker with great bravery and morale in battle. The imbiber's morale is raised by 2, as well as attack and damage rolls. The potion also increases the recipient's hit points by 10%, and these bonus hit points are lost first when the recipient takes damage. Multiple uses of this potion are not cumulative. The effect lasts for 5 turns, and cannot be dispelled."

 

I've set its price to 400.

 

 

Potion of Power

Its PnP version works like this:

- mages get +2 to caster lvl

- clerics get +1 to hit, +3 to dmg, +1 to caster lvl

- rogues get +1 to hit, +2 to dmg, +20% thieving skills

- warriors get +2 to hit, +5 dmg, +20 hit points

 

I've temporary made it grant +2 to hit, +2 dmg, +20% hit points. +20% thieving skills and +2 caster level. Note though that the effects of this potion won't stack with those from Potion of Heroism, and that to make "+2 caster level" work you have to install Taimon's exe patch which I currently haven't included yet.

 

If we want to implement it exactly as per PnP it should be doable (with much much more work than my current solution), but I fear the +5 dmg (which stacks with every other existing bonus), and also few issues (e.g. mages won't get anything without the exe pacth; how should we handle multi-class characters?).

 

 

Potion of Mirrored Eyes

Its current description is slightly misleading, because it's not clear imo that it protects against all attacks which use the "gaze" projectile. It's not a Potion of Protection from Petrification, and there's a "green scroll" for that.

 

If we all agree on that I'd like to make sure it does that (at least I'd try), because not all gaze attacks use the correct projectile. Demon's death gaze (spin996) uses it, and even IR's Skull of Death one does, but umber hulk's confusing gaze (spin839) surely doesn't, and I'll have to check vampire's dominating gaze, as well as find out how basililisk's petrification worked within BG1 (if anyone already know these things he's welcome ).

 

The effect lasts for 5 turns, and the potion costs 200gp.

 

 

Potion of Sight

Replaces Potion of Infravision. I've made it as per PnP, which means the drinker can detect invisible creatures (simlarly to Detect Invisibility spell) each round for 1 turn. The recipient is also cured from blindness and is immune to it for the duration of the effect. Price is 300gp.

 

 

Potion of Stone Form

"The effects experienced after drinking this potion are much like the effects of a Stoneskin spell. The imbiber's skin is partially turned into stone without causing any actual hindrace, but protecting from physical attacks such as melee weapons and projectiles. The first 5 attacks made against the drinker are stopped by the stone-like outer skin. The skin will remain until it stops 5 physical attacks, or after 5 turns."

 

I've set its price to 500.

 

 

Potion of Absorption

"There are terrifying creatures in the wilderness which would be a match for even the fiercest Rashemi berserker, so the Witches of Rashemen created these magical flasks to bolster their warriors' resistance. This potion will cushion the user against physical attacks made against him or her, so that only the strongest get through. The imbiber's physical resistance to damage is incresed by 20% for the duration of the effect, which is 5 turns, but multiple uses of this potion are not cumulative."

 

Completely changed, as it previously set AC to 0, lowered DEX by 3 and improved saves by 3. I've set its price to 400.

 

 

Potion of Magic Resistance

I've renamed it as per PnP, Potion of Magic Resistance (instead of Potion of Magic Protection which was confusing imo).

 

In PnP this potion has 5 doses, each granting a +10% non-cumulative bonus to magic resistance for 4d4 rounds (1 turn on average). In vanilla it granted +50% bonus for 10 turns, though being easily dispellable made it pretty weak agains non-vanilla AI (e.g. SCS's one).

 

I've opted for +20% bonus, non-cumulative with itself, but cumulative with other sources. Duration is 5 turns. I've set its price to 500.

 

 

Potion of Magic Shielding

In PnP it doesn't grant 50% resistance to elemental and magic damage (successfully saving against damage-dealing spells already do that) and I'm not too much against it, but I'll let you decide.

 

This incredibly powerful potion shouldn't have a duration higher than 1 turn imo, and its price has tto be considerably high, 1000gp.

 

 

Potion of Magic Dispelling

Replaces Potion of Magic Blocking. Following aVENGER suggestion I've turned it into a "simple" dispelling potion (with 100% chance to work), and no anti-magic effects. Its price is reduced to 300gp.

 

 

Potion of Rage

Replaces Potion of Strength. The drinker gains a +1 bonus to attack rolls, a +2 bonus to damage and a +2 bonus to saving throws versus mind affecting effects. However, the enraged character is also be unable to perform actions that require concentration, like casting spells or using thieving skills. The effect lasts for 1 turn, and potion price is 150gp.

 

 

Potion of Evasion

Replaces Potion of Agility. More or less identical to Rogue Rebalancing's Evasion HLA.

 

"This potion bestows upon the person drinking it superior reflexes and extraordinary agility. Through nearly superhuman effort, the imbiber can position himself out of harm's way mere seconds before an energy discharge reaches him, and avoid damage from energy discharges such as breath weapons, fireball spells and the like. After drinking this potion the drinker can evade the effects of the following spells: Burning Hands, Fireball, Lightning Bolt, Call Lightning, Flame Strike, Cone of Cold, Sunfire, Chain Lightning, Delayed Blast Fireball and all forms of Dragon's Breath. The effect will last for 1 turn, and cannot be dispelled."

 

We've decided to make it usable only by monks and thieves. The effect last for 1 turn, and its price is 350gp.

 

 

Potion of Toughness

Replaces Potion of Fortitude. Drinkers hit points are raised by 20% for 5 turns. Price is 250gp.

 

 

Potion of Vocalize

Replaces Potion of Genius. It works as a Vocalize spell. Very useful for clerics, druids, paladins and rangers, as they previously had no way to counter a silence effect. Price is 250gp.

 

 

Potion of Restoration

Replaces Potion of Mind Focusing. It works as a Lesser Restoration spell. Price is 300gp.

 

 

Potion of Memory

Replaces Potion of Insight. It works more or less like Word of Recall, but it can restore two spells no higher than 4th lvl (instead of 5th). I think its price should be considerable to avoid rich spellcasters to easily have an almost infinite amount of mid-low lvl spells. It currently is 500gp.

[Demivrgvs]

I've slightly updated the first post...with the most annoying matter being the following.

 

Potion of Strenght/Agility/Fortitude/Insight/Genius

Vanilla's Potion of Genius grants +4 to INT while the other set the respective characteristic to 18. Which solution do you prefer? If we want to apply the former I'd make them not stackable, but I'm not sure +4 would be balanced.

 

These potions though remind me that within BG an increased INT or WIS is an almost useless effect (useful only against Mind Flayer, learn spells or cast Wish). WIS was supposed to grant improved saves vs spells (even BG's manual mention it) but it was never implemented. Even setting CON doesn't work too well because only warriors get something from a value higher than 16.

 

We discussed about a different approach, consisting on giving bonuses tied to the respective characteristic. For example having Potion of Agility grant dexterity based bonus (+2 DEX, +2 save vs breath, +1 dodge AC) and potion of Fortitude constitution based ones (+2 CON, +2 save vs death, and either small hp boost or regen). The problem is that I don't think we can find decent bonuses for all these potions, and in the end they probably wouldn't end up in my inventory anyway (e.g. Potion of Agility doesn't grant as good combat bonuses as Oil of Speed neither good skill boosts as Potion of Master Thievery or Potion of Perception).

 

If you ask me I'd probably wouldn't mind to completely change these potions into completely new ones. I'm also almost sure the AI never uses them (and who would blame it for that? ).

[yarpen]

- Potion of Healing, Extra Healing & Superior Healing: I think that connection with curative spells is appropriate.

- Potion of Fire Resistance, Potion of Cold Resistance & Potion of Insulation: 10 or 5 turns? Don't you think that they lasts too long? I think that potions should always lasts shorter than spells (or be even few-rounds boost but that will totally screw AI I think). 1 turn in my opinion is enough. I'd vote for 5 rounds but yup, that's too short for AI from SCS which depends on potions a lot.

- Potion of Strenght/Agility/Fortitude/Insight/Genius: I don't see any better solution than replacing them with some additional, nice potions. But if you want to stay with them, my proposition is:

 

Potion of Strenght

+2 to Strenght

+1 to thaco and +2 to damages

 

Potion of Agility

+2 to Dexterity

+1 to AC, additional +1 to AC vs. missles

+1 to saving throw vs. breath

 

Potion of Fortitude

+2 to Constitution

+10 additional hit points

Immunity to fatigue.

 

Potion of Insight

+2 to Wisdom

+1 to saving throw vs. spells

+1 to divine spellcasting level

 

Potion of Genius

+2 to Inteliigence

+10 to lore bonus

+1 to arcane spellcasting level

[Demivrgvs]

- Potion of Healing, Extra Healing & Superior Healing: I think that connection with curative spells is appropriate.

Yeah, Ardanis suggested that and it makes sense...though than I would have to decide if using the original spell resource (making the potion effect different in case mods such as SR are installed or not) or a custom one (I'd obviously use SR's standard). This doubt is actually the only reason I'd probably vote for keeping a fixed value (a la vanilla BG).

 

- Potion of Fire Resistance, Potion of Cold Resistance & Potion of Insulation: 10 or 5 turns? Don't you think that they lasts too long? I think that potions should always lasts shorter than spells (or be even few-rounds boost but that will totally screw AI I think). 1 turn in my opinion is enough. I'd vote for 5 rounds but yup, that's too short for AI from SCS which depends on potions a lot.

10 turns is definetly too much imo, but 10 rounds may instead be too little (not even enough for a single encounter most of the times), that's why I suggested 5 turns. I think something between 2-5 turns would be fine, but surely no more than that.

 

Speaking of "duration", the same is true for Potions of Giant Strength's effects, vanilla's 10 turns (100 rounds) is really too much imo.

 

- Potion of Strenght/Agility/Fortitude/Insight/Genius: I don't see any better solution than replacing them with some additional, nice potions. But if you want to stay with them, my proposition is...

You and Ardanis often seem to read my mind, as your solution for INT and WIS are indeed something I thought myself. But then I realized again that I would have to find a secondary solution for those who can't install the exe patching, that 'caster lvl bonus' would be even more appropriate for the Potion of Power, and that what I said earlier about these potions being less appealing than many similar others would still apply to Potion of Strength (Potions of Giant Strength are better), Agility (Oil of Speed outshines it by far) and Fortitude (Potion of Regeneration is much more effective).

 

I don't know, sometimes I feel like I'm just pretending too much...pehaps your suggested solution may be enough (still better than vanilla).

 

Regarding possible potions replacing them I can't think of too many potions...IWDII had tons of potions (NWN not so much), but most 3rd edition potions don't fit the alchemical prototype all potions share in BG. I'd be quite against things like Potion of Mirror Image.

 

I can only think of:

- Potion of Aid (which would actually be a better version of Potion of Heroism imo)

- Potion of Vocalize (on one side it may be cool, on the other it would make the 2nd level spell even less appealing than it already is)

- Potion of Luck (a jack of all trade potion)

- Potion of Stoneskin (I was thinking about suggesting this to replace Potion of Stone Form)

- Potion of Restoration (I'm sure many would welcome it, but I fear it's too convenient...though making it really expensive may make up for it)

[Aranthys]

Hey, I've been away for a long time (IRL stuff... lots and LOTS and LOOOOOTS of work...but it's getting better)

 

Still, about the STR / DEX / INT / WIS potions :

Setting stats to 18 is way, way better than having them grant a +X bonus.

Why ?

 

Well, i've been using these (without IR) for a big and dangerous fight, mostly in BGI (can still be usefull in BGII, but there's much more dispellers there, so i didn't bother to use them that much).

 

The 18 Wis one is great for Wish / Limited Wish

The 18 Str one is nice before you have access to belts of XXX strength.

The 18 Dex is great for the Warriors that do not have a natural 18 dex.

The +4 int is great for learning spells without failure.

 

It makes it so that having a NPC with a low score in an attribute is not too bad, IE : Imoen casting Wish with her low Wisdom, keldorn and his low dex score, Viconia and her abyssal strength.

 

These potions are actually reallly usefull... but i'm also one of those that don't really agree with the fact that you modified the items to grant +X instead of setting in IR

[Demivrgvs]

Potion of Strenght/Agility/Fortitude/Insight/Genius

Setting stats to 18 is way, way better than having them grant a +X bonus.

Why ?

 

- The 18 Wis one is great for Wish / Limited Wish

- The 18 Str one is nice before you have access to belts of XXX strength.

- The 18 Dex is great for the Warriors that do not have a natural 18 dex.

- The +4 int is great for learning spells without failure.

- well, not much to justify a quite common potion. I find it rather sad to have all of Faerun full of potions which can only be useful to unwise mages casting Wish, and are completely useless in any other situation. Not to mention that having Edwin unable to use Wish to full effect is extremely roleplaying (just like he screws up the Netherese Scroll), and I'd favor roleplay over convenience anytime.

- even without the girdles, Potions of Giant Strength do the same and more

- yeah, Keldorn can use it to get +4 bonus to AC, but revised Potion of Defense will do the same and in a more "balanced" way

- well, you need two of these to get such feature...and still that's a 'plus' for incremental bonuses not for fixed values!

 

Well, i've been using these (without IR) for a big and dangerous fight, mostly in BGI (can still be usefull in BGII, but there's much more dispellers there, so i didn't bother to use them that much).

Yeah, that's one of the reason behind Revised Potions being undispellable...because else almost no one cares to waste money on potions which get always dispelled as soon as the fight starts.

 

It makes it so that having a NPC with a low score in an attribute is not too bad, IE : Imoen casting Wish with her low Wisdom, keldorn and his low dex score, Viconia and her abyssal strength.

That's our main difference, I love my characters to keep their differences. For example I like that Viconia is still weaker than Minsc if buffed in the same way, or that Valygar is still more agile than Keldorn if they both drink a Potion of Agility.

 

Having all characters with all around great stats is too "flat" for me, but I know this is a matter of tastes.

 

These potions are actually reallly usefull... but i'm also one of those that don't really agree with the fact that you modified the items to grant +X instead of setting in IR

I'll let you players decide about these potions. Regarding the belts instead, I think I may actually replace at least one of them with something more unique (no STR bonus at all).

[Aranthys]

It makes it so that having a NPC with a low score in an attribute is not too bad, IE : Imoen casting Wish with her low Wisdom, keldorn and his low dex score, Viconia and her abyssal strength.

That's our main difference, I love my characters to keep their differences. For example I like that Viconia is still weaker than Minsc if buffed in the same way, or that Valygar is still more agile than Keldorn if they both drink a Potion of Agility.

 

Having all characters with all around great stats is too "flat" for me, but I know this is a matter of tastes.

Well, if a spell grants a very strong character the strength of a very strong character, his strength should not increase.

If a spell grants a character the strength of a giant, the base strength doesn't matter : even an Ant would have a giant strength. Yeah, that's stupid, but if you can resurrect a pile of dead bones into an army of skelettons, why couldn't you give an ant the strength of a giant ?

 

I always thought you did that to prevent power playing with "Set [attribute] to X" items.

 

These potions are actually reallly usefull... but i'm also one of those that don't really agree with the fact that you modified the items to grant +X instead of setting in IR

I'll let you players decide about these potions. Regarding the belts instead, I think I may actually replace at least one of them with something more unique (no STR bonus at all).

Don't count my opinion about this, since I disagree on one of the basis of this mod to eradicate the "Set [attribute] to X" items (Actually, the main reason why I'm not using IR myself)

[yarpen]

10 turns is definetly too much imo, but 10 rounds may instead be too little (not even enough for a single encounter most of the times), that's why I suggested 5 turns. I think something between 2-5 turns would be fine, but surely no more than that.

 

Speaking of "duration", the same is true for Potions of Giant Strength's effects, vanilla's 10 turns (100 rounds) is really too much imo.

You know, still things like that should have some hindrances and disadvantages over spells. Sooo... when they're undispellable, duration is the only thing. 10 rounds is quite large amount of time - most of kit's abilities have something like 4-5 rounds Potions should be used as 'boost' not as buff. But that's only my opinion.

[Jarno Mikkola]

You know, still things like that should have some hindrances and disadvantages over spells. Sooo... when they're undispellable, duration is the only thing. 10 rounds is quite large amount of time - most of kit's abilities have something like 4-5 rounds Potions should be used as 'boost' not as buff. But that's only my opinion.

I was thinking quite much the same, after all, I'll never assume I could run into 2 great dragons within 2 days, so I doubt that I would need a potion to keep my strenght up for two days, as it should take a month or two to meat those dragons even in high levels...

 

So 5 rounds sounds fine to me.

[Aranthys]

You know, still things like that should have some hindrances and disadvantages over spells. Sooo... when they're undispellable, duration is the only thing. 10 rounds is quite large amount of time - most of kit's abilities have something like 4-5 rounds Potions should be used as 'boost' not as buff. But that's only my opinion.

I was thinking quite much the same, after all, I'll never assume I could run into 2 great dragons within 2 days, so I doubt that I would need a potion to keep my strenght up for two days, as it should take a month or two to meat those dragons even in high levels...

 

So 5 rounds sounds fine to me.

5 rounds is far from beeing fine.

Most buffs last for 1turn/level in SR since low duration buffs were barely used in Vanilla BG.

 

When I drink a potion, I think that it's important to have an effect that lasts a bit of time.

Either it has a BIG impact for and doesn't last long (Magic protection, 1 turn), or it has a marginal effect and has to last much longer (Heroism, Strength & so on, 10 turns).

 

Potions should last at least one full fight for regular potions, that means about 3-4 turns min.

 

Actually, you could diversify potions this way :

- Healing potions

- Strong effect but short-length potions (Create a potion of berzerking, for example)

- Long lasting buff potions.

 

Remember that the hindrance of potions is that they're consumable, unlike spells.

[Demivrgvs]

Potion's effects Duration

You know, still things like that should have some hindrances and disadvantages over spells. Sooo... when they're undispellable, duration is the only thing. 10 rounds is quite large amount of time - most of kit's abilities have something like 4-5 rounds Potions should be used as 'boost' not as buff. But that's only my opinion.

I was thinking quite much the same, after all, I'll never assume I could run into 2 great dragons within 2 days, so I doubt that I would need a potion to keep my strenght up for two days, as it should take a month or two to meat those dragons even in high levels...

 

So 5 rounds sounds fine to me.

Well then, if most of you agree on reducing most durations I'm fine with it, but potions with 5-10 turns duration in vanilla still have to last at least 1-2 turns or we'll seriously screw SCS AI.

 

Aranthys, I do agree a relatively small effect (Potion of Defense) should have longer duration than a very powerful one (Potion of Magic Blocking), and rest assured I'll keep that in mind.

 

That being said, I'm an idiot. I forgot to look at AD&D Encyclopedia Magica till now, and now I can see that PnP (2nd edition) versions of many potions were exactly how I was planning to change them (e.g. Potion of Invulnerabilty) and that in PnP potions lasted indeed much less than in BG (though there they used a "xdy rounds" duration system which I don't particularly like).

 

I'll update the first post soon, but I've time for a small preview...

 

Potion of Invulnerability

I swear I did it before knowing it's exactly as per PnP.

 

This potion now grants immunity to normal weapons, and +2 bonus to AC and saves; instead of setting AC to 0 and granting +5 to all saves. The effects last 1 turn instead of 5. Can only be used by warriors.

 

Vanilla's price was 1200, but 1000 may be enough.

[yarpen]

Potion's effects duration

I know Demi, that's why I think that 1 turn for these protection potions will be just fine. It'll cover the MOST of encounter (if you will not finish it fast). I think that this sort of change will allow you to give to them much more powerfull effects. I'm also quite sure that it's not too short for SCS. You know, these sort of magic items (potions) can be powerfull, there's a lot of magic there - but still, human's organism consumes it pretty fast so 1 turn I think is as overall balanced and role-playing

 

I do like xdy durations, it makes it a bit more random. Everything depends on that how they were brewed and how your organism deals with magic potions.

 

Potion of Invulnerability

For this potion I was thinking about something really pwning. "Drinker cannot die in next 3 rounds" (I want this sort of vodka, believe me) But if it's PnP, I think that's quite ok. I'm only afraid that it's going to be too powerfull in BG1 and too weak for BG2 (not so many creatures have non-enchanted weapon). Also, are you sure about it's duration? Protection from Normal Weapons lasts as far as I remember 5 rounds, so it's half of your potion. Hm hm hm?

 

New Potions

So Demi, any ideas about some new potions? Maybe some special "weapon coating" potions? With similiar to Asassin's one poison, with magic fire, holy water (bonus against undead and demons).

[Demivrgvs]

Potion's effects duration

I do like xdy durations, it makes it a bit more random. Everything depends on that how they were brewed and how your organism deals with magic potions.

You do have a point, but it would be a lot of work (probably not issue free), and I'm sure many players wouldn't like it.

 

 

Potion of Invulnerability

For this potion I was thinking about something really pwning. "Drinker cannot die in next 3 rounds" (I want this sort of vodka, believe me) But if it's PnP, I think that's quite ok. I'm only afraid that it's going to be too powerfull in BG1 and too weak for BG2 (not so many creatures have non-enchanted weapon). Also, are you sure about it's duration? Protection from Normal Weapons lasts as far as I remember 5 rounds, so it's half of your potion. Hm hm hm?

Protection from Normal Weapons lasts 1 round per caster level, thus 9-20 rounds, while PnP Potion of Invulnerability lasts 5d4 rounds. I suggested something in the middle, but depending on its effectiveness I may indeed reduce it to 5-6 rounds.

 

Regarding its effectiveness your concerns are exactly the same I have, but I'm actually more worried about BG2 than BG1. TuTu and BGT players should be able to find PfNW scroll anyway (am I wrong?), this potion's price is almost prohibitive in BG1 (isn't it? ), and it's also pretty rare, thus you shouldn't be able to use it more than a bunch of times.

 

Anyway, if there's a player or two who'd like to test potions within BGT before v3 is ready I may put my current beta version of them into a separate mini-mod.

 

For BG2 I've thought about making this potion work as SR's Mantle when consumed by high level warriors...but I'm not convinced about potions with effects based on user's level. PnP Potion of Heroism and Potion of Thievery indeed work this way (Rogue Rebalancing already implements the latter), this is one of those things were I'd like to have a lot of feedback and players opinions.

 

 

New Potions

So Demi, any ideas about some new potions? Maybe some special "weapon coating" potions? With similiar to Asassin's one poison, with magic fire, holy water (bonus against undead and demons).

Eh eh, you know Revisions mod rarely add new items/spells/kits but:

- Oil of Fiery Burning will cause melee and ranged weapons to deal a small amount of fire damage (it currently does 1d3 for 5 rounds, but I'm open to suggestions)

- doing something with Holy Water is indeed a good idea! I would have to add it to various temples though, would it mess with the plot to have it available to purchase instead of only from Elhan?

[yarpen]

You do have a point, but it would be a lot of work (probably not issue free), and I'm sure many players wouldn't like it.

There would be some amount of work, but issues? You're giving probability parameter for effects with various durations. But still, idea isn't welcome because of SCS scripts - they're taking these few rounds of being under potion's effect as certain.

 

Protection from Normal Weapons lasts 1 round per caster level, thus 9-20 rounds, while PnP Potion of Invulnerability lasts 5d4 rounds. I suggested something in the middle, but depending on its effectiveness I may indeed reduce it to 5-6 rounds.

Sorry, my fault. So I think yes, your 1 Turn is appropriate.

 

For BG2 I've thought about making this potion work as SR's Mantle when consumed by high level warriors...but I'm not convinced about potions with effects based on user's level. PnP Potion of Heroism and Potion of Thievery indeed work this way (Rogue Rebalancing already implements the latter), this is one of those things were I'd like to have a lot of feedback and players opinions.

I'm quite against this idea. Heroism/Thievery potions enhances character's skills and profinency, and this spell grants just some magical effect, it shouldn't depend on character's level. Maybe you should create greater version of this potion which protects against +2 weapons?

 

Eh eh, you know Revisions mod rarely add new items/spells/kits but:

But you're probably removing few useless potions soooo... there's a place for something brand, flesh, new and cool. As for example additional variants for potion like Oil of Fiery Burning

 

doing something with Holy Water is indeed a good idea! I would have to add it to various temples though, would it mess with the plot to have it available to purchase instead of only from Elhan?

You can always tune-up Elhan's water description, it can be "Elven holy water" (pretty sure it's) and in normal temples you can buy *just* Holy Water.

 

Note: potions could be a fighter's thing compareable with wizard's spells. If you have any sensible background description for "potion" which allows to disable wizard's combat protections - I'm sending to Italia a crate full of vodka.

[Demivrgvs]

Random Duration

You do have a point, but it would be a lot of work (probably not issue free), and I'm sure many players wouldn't like it.

There would be some amount of work, but issues? You're giving probability parameter for effects with various durations. But still, idea isn't welcome because of SCS scripts - they're taking these few rounds of being under potion's effect as certain.

You just mentioned a compatibility issue, but technically there would be the same problem encountered with vanilla's Vampiric Touch or SR v2 Chromatic Orb. Long story short it would have issues, trust me.

 

 

Potion of Invulnerability

For BG2 I've thought about making this potion work as SR's Mantle when consumed by high level warriors...but I'm not convinced about potions with effects based on user's level. PnP Potion of Heroism and Potion of Thievery indeed work this way (Rogue Rebalancing already implements the latter), this is one of those things were I'd like to have a lot of feedback and players opinions.

I'm quite against this idea. Heroism/Thievery potions enhances character's skills and profinency, and this spell grants just some magical effect, it shouldn't depend on character's level.

Good point.

 

Maybe you should create greater version of this potion which protects against +2 weapons?

Mmm...we'll see, for now my priority is existing potions (which are used by the AI), not new ones.

 

 

New Potions

Eh eh, you know Revisions mod rarely add new items/spells/kits but:

But you're probably removing few useless potions soooo... there's a place for something brand, flesh, new and cool. As for example additional variants for potion like Oil of Fiery Burning

I don't know, as of now the only candidates to be replaced were Potions of Strength/Agility/Fortitude/Genius/Insight and officially I have you for it and Aranthys against it.

 

 

Holy Water

doing something with Holy Water is indeed a good idea! I would have to add it to various temples though, would it mess with the plot to have it available to purchase instead of only from Elhan?

You can always tune-up Elhan's water description, it can be "Elven holy water" (pretty sure it's) and in normal temples you can buy *just* Holy Water.

Actually my idea was to "tune-down" Elven Holy Water to *just* Holy Water, though ironically it would be more useful than before. Anyway, I have to take a look at in-game dialogs before attempting something like that.

 

 

Fighter's potions

Note: potions could be a fighter's thing compareable with wizard's spells. If you have any sensible background description for "potion" which allows to disable wizard's combat protections.

Eh eh, I do like the possibility to add variety to fighter's gameplay, and to use potions to "fill the gap" between spellcaster's power and fighter's power, but a Potion of Breach is not gonna happen.

 

I'm sending to Italia a crate full of vodka.

Send it to Genoa! But don't remember me I'm Italian, I'm not proud of my country at all these days.