Druids

[Aranthys]

Druids are quite balanced, but there's a few things that could be made better about them, mostly special abilities.

All shapeshifting methods are based on the SCSI rebalanced Shapeshifter component (Create a weapon that transforms you when equipped)

 

Unless stated, there's no change to the classes.

 

True druid :

Can shapeshift into a Bear / Wolf at level 7.

These forms become stronger at level 13 & 19

Bear is the melee tanking form : Bonus hitpoints, crushing / piercing / slashing resistance.

Wolf is the melee damaging form : Improved THACO, more attacks

 

It would also scrap one of the bear forms (one is more than enough actually... they serve the same purpose)

 

Avenger: :

Can shapeshift into a Spider / Wyvern / Fire Salamander at level 7

These forms become stronger at level 13 and 19.

 

Totemic Druid :

- Rebalanced spirit summons :

Weaker at level 1-9 (see Tutufix for a good example on how to fix them)

Stronger at level 15+

 

Disadvantages : Can't shapeshift into regular animal forms

 

Shapeshifter : :

- Can shapeshift into a Lesser Werewolf at level 1

- Can shapeshift into a Werewolf at level 7

- Can shapeshift into a Greater Werewolf at level 13

- Can shapeshift into a Superior Werewolf at level 19

[Jarno Mikkola]

Just few comments...

 

True druid :

Bear is the melee tanking form : Bonus hitpoints, crushing / piercing / slashing resistance.

I would thing the bonus hitpoints would be enough... to avoid exploits... as I have never heard of bear getting stronger(hit points) from gun shots, even though Bear Seekers(Berserker) might be able to do that, but it would be bonus strength, not hit points.

 

Shapeshifter : :

- Can shapeshift into a Lesser Werewolf at level 1

Erm, I would actually give them just a claw weapon, not shapeshift them totally.

 

Druids generally:

Can they cast spells on shifted shapes, I would allow Shapeshifters do that on levels 10+ and others do that in levels 16+, but that's just me.

And what of Hide Armors, Dragon Scale Armors, and Ankheg Plate Mail? I would think most could wear them- this is of course if IR is not installed.

[Aranthys]

Erm, no.

No casting while shapeshifted. You can shapeshift at will anyway with the way DW implemented the shapeshifting weapons.

About bears : Think of it as a "Thick hide". Kinda like barbarians recieve a piercing / slashing / blunt damage resistance. It would not be very high (20% with level 19 bear form)

I'm just trying to make druid shapeshifting more interesting, since at the moment nobody uses it, and it's logical : it sucks. Why would you ?

[yarpen]

I'd rather prefer to start shapeshifting from 5th level. In PnP druidic shapeshifting abilities were divided into three groups:

- small animals (starts at 5th level) as for example rat, rabbit or snake. Usually they work as scouts or very nimble fighters (snake's poison)

- medium animals (starts at 7th level) so in this group you can find wolf and his wolf pack ability (let's say howl gives 50% chance to summon another wolf in wilderness) dog and his scen or larger snake

- large animals (starts at 9th level) - bears and panteras!

[Aranthys]

I'd rather prefer to start shapeshifting from 5th level. In PnP druidic shapeshifting abilities were divided into three groups:

- small animals (starts at 5th level) as for example rat, rabbit or snake. Usually they work as scouts or very nimble fighters (snake's poison)

- medium animals (starts at 7th level) so in this group you can find wolf and his wolf pack ability (let's say howl gives 50% chance to summon another wolf in wilderness) dog and his scen or larger snake

- large animals (starts at 9th level) - bears and panteras!

Biggest problem here is that too many forms is not good.

Some of the forms would be useless, and you would have access to too many innate buttons.

 

on the other hand, druids could start shapeshifting at level 5, and have improved forms at level 10, 15 and 20.

A wolf form that doesn't evolve with its caster is useless after a few levels.

Same goes for all other forms.

 

The pattern for shapeshifting abilities would be :

Low level (5) : Lesser form.

Medium level ( 10) : Medium form.

Medium-high level (15): Greater form.

High level (20): Superior form.

 

I'm trying to give a reason for people to use druidic shapeshifting, it's not just for flavor.

I want the ability to be balanced and usefull, both at low levels and at high levels.

 

Demi, if you're okay with this, do you mind if I start working on these modifications ?

[Jarno Mikkola]

The pattern for shapeshifting abilities would be :

Low level (5) : Lesser form.

Medium level (10) : Medium form.

Medium-high level (15): Greater form.

High level (20): Superior form.

-erm, what you need to remember is that druids Xp requirements increases irrationally, and he'll be getting the Superior forms from HLA's at level 14, at least in none Tweakpack modified game. Of course the tweak can be insisted in the Kit Revision mod... but just in case, I remind of it.

 

Demi, if you're okay with this, do you mind if I start working on these modifications?

I doubt that he would object, at least if he had the final say.

[Demivrgvs]

You know that I have to start the very same topic sooner o later just to make it look like the others? Jokes aside...let's see what I can say without going into too much detail.

 

True Druid

If I'm not wrong the main discussion here is about shapeshifting abilities. Well we have a lot of things to discuss about it.

 

1) How to implement them from a technical point of view.

For example: do we really prefer the "equippable paws" solution? I find this solution incredibly immersion-breaking and partially unbalancing. The former simply because having a pair of paws in the backpack to equip is silly imo, the latter because instant shapeshifting which doesn't even count as an action is too much, and shapeshift at will is incredibly unbalanced unless the forms aren't much of an improvement. If instead we do want the shapeshifted form to be cool they obviously can't be used "at will". Anyway, this solution is the one which better handle the "dispellability" issue, which is a really important aspect.

 

2) How to implement them from a gameplay point of view:

a. standard (e.g. shapeshifting into a Bear means getting always the same characteristics, thac0, AC, damage, "weapon" enchantment level as a standard 7HD bear)

b. scalable (e.g. values such as thac0, AC and "weapon" enchantment level improve at certain levels)

 

A scalable form though still need some limits imo, as having for example a 9HD bear/wolf form with +2 enchanted paws/bite may still make sense, but having it improve too much may become silly (e.g. at 20th level a druid should shapeshift into something like a 16HD bear with +4 paws?! ), and having a 9HD rat/cat would be quite strange too imo.

 

To make low HD/level form more appealing we may give them special features (e.g. cat form may grant free action, the rat may be a stealth form with a diseasing bit, ...)

 

 

Avenger

This kit has really nothing to do with what it was supposed to be, as in PnP this kit cannot shapeshift at all! In theory this kit would have been a sort of barbarian-druid with an Animal Rage ability, but I don't know if such feature would still make sense combined with the mage-like abilities.

 

If you ask me, I'd prefer to completely remove shapeshifting abilities from this kit and focus on the increased affinity to elemental spells.

 

P.S just so you know, I would never allow a druid to shapeshift into a Fire Salamander, not because they can't in PnP, but because it doesn't make any sense! A Fire Salamander is not an animal, and even if I may accept magical beasts at high levels (such as Winter Wolf and Wyverns), this is not even a magical beast, it's an extraplanar crature. If we accept this form than why not an Ice Troll? Why not a Hellhound?

 

 

Totemic Druid

Yeah, Spirit Animals must be rebalanced as they currently are brokenly overpowered at low levels (I suppose they are true monsters in BG1) and almost useless at high levels. Not being able to shapeshift is a classic disadvantage for druid kits in PnP, and I think it suits all of those portraied in BG. I already have a high level ability in mind for this kit, Spirit Form (almost identical to SR's Ghost Form).

 

 

Shapeshifter

Same as Spirit Animals, this kit is really too powerful in BG1 but needs to be improved at higher levels. This is the only kit where I may allow spellcasting while shapeshifted, but only on the lesser forms, and at not before 15th level.

 

Actually, what Refinements did to this kit through HLAs is more or less what I want to achieve.

 

 

XP Table

-erm, what you need to remember is that druids Xp requirements increases irrationally, and he'll be getting the Superior forms from HLA's at level 14, at least in none Tweakpack modified game. Of course the tweak can be insisted in the Kit Revision mod... but just in case, I remind of it.

Yeah, KR druids will surely use cleric level progression, even without TweakPack. Vanilla's progression is ridiculous and completely ruins the balance of these classes (e.g. getting mid-high level spells/abilities really too easily, and then being stuck at 14th-15th level for an eternity)

 

 

Demi, if you're okay with this, do you mind if I start working on these modifications?

I doubt that he would object, at least if he had the final say.

Exactly, I jsut think things must be discussed a little more before starting to work on them. Else you may just end up wasting a lot of work because I/we decide to do it in another way.

[Aranthys]

You know that I have to start the very same topic sooner o later just to make it look like the others? Jokes aside...let's see what I can say without going into too much detail.

Weeeeeeeelll... since you're an admin you can always edit this message

But I'll make sure it's up to date.

 

[...]

For example: do we really prefer the "equippable paws" solution? I find this solution incredibly immersion-breaking and partially unbalancing. The former simply because having a pair of paws in the backpack to equip is silly imo, the latter because instant shapeshifting which doesn't even count as an action is too much, and shapeshift at will is incredibly unbalanced unless the forms aren't much of an improvement. If instead we do want the shapeshifted form to be cool they obviously can't be used "at will". Anyway, this solution does on thing which unfortunately is really important, cannot be dispelled.

Well the best way to do this is to choose the lesser of two evils.

If i remember well, druids are supposed to shapeshift at will. The only problem is that equipping a weapon doesn't count as an action. We could always resolve this by giving an "on equip" ability, lasting one round, that prevents the character from doing anything when shapeshifting. It would not prevent a druid from switching back to human form instantly, but at least it wouldn't be as powerful.

About the immersion, I think it's way worse to have your druidic paws dispelled than to have to equip a weapon to mimic shapeshifting.

 

2) How to implement them from a gameplay point of view:

a. standard (e.g. shapeshifting into a Bear means getting always the same characteristics, thac0, AC, damage, "weapon" enchantment level as a standard 7HD bear)

b. scalable (e.g. values such as thac0, AC and "weapon" enchantment level improve at certain levels)

 

A scalable form though still need some limits imo, as having for example a 9HD bear/wolf form with +2 enchanted paws/bite may still make sense, but having it improve too much may become silly (e.g. at 20th level a druid should shapeshift into something like a 16HD bear with +4 paws?! ), and having a 9HD rat/cat would be quite strange too imo.

 

To make low HD/level form more appealing we may give them special features (e.g. cat form may grant free action, the rat may be a stealth form with a diseasing bit, ...)

 

I want the forms to be usable, but not overpowered.

Clerics are way way more powerfull than druids with SR : They have better heals, better AC, better group buffs, and can deal damage in melee while casting their spells.

 

I think druids should use shapeshifting to mimic these aspects of Clerics abilities. Depending on the form, they could either be a front-line damage soaker or a fast mobile damage dealer. Their forms would have a purpose.

About rats, cats & so on... I'm really not fond of having other, minor forms.

While interesting in PnP, these would serve absolutly no purpose in BG2.

 

About the HD (THACO & Hitpoints) these forms would use the base thaco & hitpoints of the Druid.

Shapeshifting only increases attributes, attacks per round, damage and grants specific resistances.

 

 

Avenger

This kit has really nothing to do with what it was supposed to be, as in PnP this kit doesn't have shapeshifting abilities! In theory this kit would have been a sort of barbarian-druid with an Animal Rage ability, but I don't know if such feature would still make sense combined with the mage-like abilities.

 

If you ask me, I'd prefer to completely remove shapeshifting abilities from this kit and focus on the increased affinity to elemental spells.

[...]

They already have the harsher limitations :

- Cannot wear armor better than leather

- -2 STR/CON at creation.

 

They should be able to shapeshift. How about having them shapeshift into some kind of an "elemental" animal ?

- "Frost wolf"

- "Fire panther"

- "Thunder *THING*"

 

These would all be similar to a druid "wolf form", with lower attributes & damage, but would grant elemental immunity & additional elemental damage on hit.

 

Shapeshifter

Same as Spirit Animals, this kit is really too powerful in BG1 but needs to be improved at higher levels. This is the only kit where I may allow spellcasting while shapeshifted, but only on the lesser forms, and at not before 15th level.

 

Actually, what Refinements did to this kit through HLAs is more or less what I want to achieve.

Have you tried the rebalanced Shapeshifting component from SCSI ?

It handles this quite good.

And I really don't think you should be able to cast while shapeshifted... that would scream "IMBA".

[Aranthys]

Here's some examples on how I would implement these.

All forms use the current druid THACO.

 

 

------------------------------------THIS IS A WONDERFUL SEPARATOR FOR MY YUMMY MESSAGE------------------------------------

 

 

Bear forms :

 

Bears are the "tanking forms" for druids. They can take a beating, while dealing average damage in melee.

They walk at human speed.

 

Bear : - available at level 7

STR : 18/00

DEX : 12

CON : 18

AC : 0

15 additional hitpoints

2 attacks per round at 1d8 damage

Paws are considered +1

 

Dire bear : - available at level 13

STR : 19

DEX : 12

CON : 20

AC : -3

30 additional hitpoints

2 attack per round at 1d8 damage

10% slashing/blunt/piercing damage resistance

Paws are considered +2

 

Runic bear : - available at level 19

STR : 20

DEX : 12

CON : 22

AC : -6

45 additional hitpoints

2 attack per round at 1d8 damage

20% slashing/blunt/piercing damage resistance

Paws are considered +3

 

 

------------------------------------THIS IS A WONDERFUL SEPARATOR FOR MY YUMMY MESSAGE------------------------------------

 

 

Wolf forms :

 

Wolves are the "damaging forms" for druids. They are fast, agile, and deal good damage in melee.

They walk at 1.5x human speed

 

Wolf : - available at level 7

STR : 17

DEX : 18

CON : 12

AC : 4

2 attacks per round at 2d8 damage

Paws are considered +1

 

Dire wolf: - available at level 13

STR : 18/00

DEX : 20

CON : 14

AC : 2

3 attacks per round at 2d8 damage

Paws are considered +2

 

Runic wolf: - available at level 19

STR : 18/00

DEX : 22

CON : 16

AC : 0

4 attacks per round at 2d8 damage

Paws are considered +3

 

 

------------------------------------THIS IS A WONDERFUL SEPARATOR FOR MY YUMMY MESSAGE------------------------------------

 

 

Werewolf forms :

Werewolves are good "all around" melee forms, with regenerating powers, good movement rate, magic resistance and good damage.

 

Lesser Werewolf : - available at level 1

STR : 18/76

DEX : 17

CON : 18

AC : 3

1 attack per round at 1d6 damage

Paws are considered magical

Regenerates 1hp every 3 rounds

10% magic resistance bonus

 

Werewolf : - available at level 7

Strength : 19

DEX : 18

CON : 20

AC : 0

2 attacks per round at 1d8 damage

Paws are considered +1

Regenerates 1hp per round

20% magic resistance bonus

 

Greater Werewolf : - available at level 13

STR : 20

DEX : 19

CON : 22

AC : -3

2 attacks per round at 2d6 damage

Paws are considered +2

Regenerates 3 hp per round

30% magic resistance bonus

25% elemental resistance

Immune to normal weapons

 

Ancient Werewolf : - available at level 19

STR : 21

DEX : 20

CON : 25

AC : -6

2 attacks per round at 2d8 damage

Paws are considered +3

Regenerates 6 hp per round

40% magic resistance bonus

50% elemental resistance

Immune to weapons +1 or lower.

[Ardanis]

Twin kits

Actually, what Refinements did to this kit through HLAs is more or less what I want to achieve.

I had certain trouble with that method used, and iirc it involves baldur.bcs to boot. There's a much nicer way to make a form usable at will instead of X/day. At least I see no reason for it not to work.

 

Runic wolf

Maybe Vampiric one instead? I remember them roaming in BG1 somewhere.

[Aranthys]

Twin kits

Actually, what Refinements did to this kit through HLAs is more or less what I want to achieve.

I had certain trouble with that method used, and iirc it involves baldur.bcs to boot. There's a much nicer way to make a form usable at will instead of X/day. At least I see no reason for it not to work.

 

Runic wolf

Maybe Vampiric one instead? I remember them roaming in BG1 somewhere.

Well Vampiric wolf is a bit too evil for a druid don't you think ?

But if anyone finds a better name than "Runic" (that i've spent at least... a whole minute finding) well I'm all open to suggestions

[yarpen]

Aranthys, I've presented PnP version of shapeshifting. Your looks as huh, good for powergamers but from roleplaying point of view isn't so great. Uber-animals who fights like dragons? Don't like it.

 

I think that making shapeshifted druid immune to Dispel Magic without informing a player is the best way Whoops, I've informed them. Hey, thanks to randomness of this spell anyone who wasn't informed about this wouldn't notice that. I know that in roleplaying it sucks. I think that Dispel Magic should also have an ability to return shapeshifted druid to natural form and disabling ability of shapeshifting for few rounds.

 

Animals with exception of Bear/Panther shouldn't be a powerfull fighters but there should be a stress on special abilities. Panther has backstab, Bear can stun enemies or got regeneration, Wolf can summon another wolves, rat is nearly impossible to kill etc. I think that there should be a variety of forms, even if you're going to use them once-twice per game it enhances roleplaying. Also these forms should be available from Select Spell opcode (so we have ability of Shapeshifting and after using it you've got a list of forms as in Spell Immunity).

 

Avenger

This kit is really messed up in BG2 - it doesn't fit to anything. There is a kit name - there's a kit description and there are abilities. And nothing fits each to another! I think that you should do a little revolution and make him as in PnP grim warrior-druid. I'm presenting my version

 

Advantages:

- +1 to thaco and damages

- Gain additional 2 hit points per level

- Can achieve specialisation in any weapon available for druid

- At 9th level gain additional 1/2 of attack per round

 

Disadvantages:

- -2 to Charisma and Wisdom

- Cannot change his shape

- Doesn't become immune to Charm at 7th level (as druids notabene in PnP should)

- -2 penalty to reputation at start

 

Also additional thought about shapeshifting. What about making bonuses from shapeshifting insead of:

- set HP at x

- set ThaC0 at y

 

into

- give +20% bonus to HP

- give +2 ThaC0 bonus

 

This sort of bonuses removes the problem of weak forms later I think. Some forms will not grant you bonuses to certain attributes (or even lower it) but will enhance a lot few other. Animals aren't template, and I think that druid who's physically strong gonna be better bear than this weak one. Shapeshifter should be an exception.

 

Shapeshifter

I've prefered PnP Shapeshifter - who was master of changing into various forms many time and his shapeshifting abilities were starting from 1st level. Or even 3rd.

[Jarno Mikkola]

Avenger

This kit has really nothing to do with what it was supposed to be, as in PnP this kit cannot shapeshift at all! In theory this kit would have been a sort of barbarian-druid with an Animal Rage ability, but I don't know if such feature would still make sense combined with the mage-like abilities.

 

If you ask me, I'd prefer to completely remove shapeshifting abilities from this kit and focus on the increased affinity to elemental spells.

Well, then we could add Shadow Druid kit, which would use the Avengers shapeshifting abilities and Animal Rage, while the Avenger is more elemental-mage-like caster with few bonus spells or spell like abilities(innate spells) without any shapeshifting... or should it be the other way around...

 

XP Table...

Exactly...

Good, good.

[Aranthys]

Aranthys, I've presented PnP version of shapeshifting. Your looks as huh, good for powergamers but from roleplaying point of view isn't so great. Uber-animals who fights like dragons? Don't like it.

Well sure.

But I do expect a High level, epic, shapeshifted druid to be tough...

 

I also agree that roleplaying is fun, but from experience, we need both roleplaying aspect and usefull trough the game abilities, otherwise those abilities (and even the class itself) gets overshadowed by other abilities / classes.

See bards for a good example.

 

Now, I do like some of your suggestions, but how do we prevent druids from ignoring transformations past level 10 ?

A near-immune rat is a powergamer's heaven, for example, far worse than the "improved" forms from my previous message.

 

On the other hand, we could implement some "I am usefull" shapeshifting abilities, but how ?

I don't think you can modify the action bars to give a druid the Hide in shadows ability while shapeshifted.

That means the only way to have a backstabbing panther would be to have her get some kind of invisibility spell...

 

Avenger, as a kit, is a druid that gets improved spellcasting abilities.

The purpose it serves is as a spell-oriented druid, that gets to use more damaging abilities at the cost of its physical abilities.

 

A Shapeshifter, on the other hand, has the purpose of a melee oriented druid, thanks to its powerfull abilities.

[Aranthys]

Anyway, the one that will say "Alright, let's do this" is Demi, so let's just give him as much suggestions as possible