Unearthed Arcana presents Might & Guile: tweaks and kits for warriors and rogues

[Miloch]

As for feats: here's the deal. Trueclass fighters are weaker than every fighter and ranger and paladin kit.

Not true, at least compared with fighters and rangers. Being able to put 4 or 5 stars in a melee weapon is not something you should overlook. Sure, the archer is a better missile weapon user, but naturally, that's what she's supposed to be. I'd take a trueclass fighter even over a barbarian (who, when you look at it, are rather disadvantaged on several accounts).

[subtledoctor]

Is the psypher supposed to lose health permanently every time they cast an ability?

No. The Psypher regains (max) health at a slow pace.

 

Unfortunately there is a problem with the kit, if you use enough abilities to send yourself into negative hit points things break rather badly. I've been trying to address this recently, so far without success. As of now I'm not sure what can be done and/or how far back to the drawing board I'll have to go, to make the psionics work.

 

 

As for feats: here's the deal. Trueclass fighters are weaker than every fighter and ranger and paladin kit.

Not true, at least compared with fighters and rangers. Being able to put 4 or 5 stars in a melee weapon is not something you should overlook. Sure, the archer is a better missile weapon user, but naturally, that's what she's supposed to be. I'd take a trueclass fighter even over a barbarian (who, when you look at it, are rather disadvantaged on several accounts).

Well sure, so would I, but then I'm averse to cheese. There are plenty of players who would rather play a Barb and load it up with the Defender of Easthaven and whatever other items to stack resistances, and then go into a Rage to maintain full control ove the character (doesn't sound very rage-y to me) and get immunity to fear and confusion and imprisonment and whatever else.

 

Whatever. I don't remember. That isn't the point. I actually think the Barbarian is fairly well balanced (not like the abomination that is the Bioware Berserker). But that doesn't mean it should get to use my fighter feats like "Tactics: Formation" abd "Tactics: Discipline" and "Parrying Stance" and "Precise Strike" etc. Those aren't Barbarian-y things.

 

What I would do - and don't hold your breath because I don't have the free time - what I would do it strip all of the fighter kits of their abilities: Rage, Berserking, backstab immunity, damage resistance, magic resistance, spell-disruption-on-hit, ability to reach GM in melee weapons, ability to reach GM in ranged weapons, etc... turn all of those things into feats, along with stuff like Precise Strike and Group Tactics and Health Conditioning et al., and let you build your own warrior however you like.

 

That's what I did with the thief kits, and I think it's cool. Problem is, no other mod fighter kit would be compatible. The low-impact way to do is is to spice up the boring kit with feats that are 1) thematically appropriate and 2) low-power. And leave the other kits alone, since they are well-regarded (Barb is generally thought of as fun for bashing/tanking, the Zerk is everyone's favorite cheese) or suitably addressed by other mods (Wizard Slayer Rebalanced).

 

Eventually this kind of thing could be s bigger overhaul. After a long time thinking feats wouldn't work for wizards we're on the cusp of making it happen, and only priests remain after that and they wouldn't be hard. So we might extract the fighter and rogue feats from M&G and turn it into a major class/kit overhaul, with feats for everyone. We'll see. It requires time, of which I have none.

[Zano]

I haven't had a chance to fully track it down, but in my latest modded install I ended up with a BACKSTAB.2DA that had backstab modifiers reduced on kits that should have normal thief progression (thief, bounty hunter, etc.) and the assassin reduced to the backstab multiplier of the stalker. As far as I can tell this mod would be the last that modified the BACKSTAB.2DA in my mod install order so I feel like this is the culprit. Any idea if that may be the case?

Edited January 12, 2018 by Zano

[Roxanne]

I haven't had a chance to fully track it down, but in my latest modded install I ended up with a BACKSTAB.2DA that had backstab modifiers reduced on kits that should have normal thief progression (thief, bounty hunter, etc.) and the assassin reduced to the backstab multiplier of the stalker. As far as I can tell this mod would be the last that modified the BACKSTAB.2DA in my mod install order so I feel like this is the culprit. Any idea if that may be the case?

You can test that by renaming the backstab.2da in your override folder to something else (for backup). Then look for a version of backstab.2da inside the M&G/backup folders. Copy that one and put it into override.

If that solves the problem, you have an indication that M&G is the problem. If not, restore the renamed earlier file, (You may then use change-log to look for other possible culprits).

Edited January 12, 2018 by Roxanne

[Jarno Mikkola]

Or one can just go to the game folder, take any of the setup-modname.exe's and rename it as weidu.exe and run it and set these command lines into it, or make a .txt file, rename it as .bat and insert the command lines in it:

mkdir change-log
WeiDU.exe --log nul --change-log backstab.2da >change-log/change-log.txt --out change-log

And run the .bat ...

And then go to the folder and open the files with Notepad to find the real culprit.

[subtledoctor]

I haven't had a chance to fully track it down, but in my latest modded install I ended up with a BACKSTAB.2DA that had backstab modifiers reduced on kits that should have normal thief progression (thief, bounty hunter, etc.) and the assassin reduced to the backstab multiplier of the stalker. As far as I can tell this mod would be the last that modified the BACKSTAB.2DA in my mod install order so I feel like this is the culprit. Any idea if that may be the case?

If you installed the Feats component, then it will change backstab progression, by design. You can spend a feat to increase your multiplier.

 

From the Readme:

 

"A note about backstabbing: the base tables are simplified: x2 at level 1, x3 at level 9, and x4 at level 18. Shadowdancers' multiplier is 1 lower than other thieves. And Swashbuckers' multiplier is always x1. BUT, any thief can take the 'Backstab Bonus' feat once to improve the multiplier (to x5 for most thieves, x4 for Shadowdancers, and x2 for Swashbucklers). And Assassins may take that feat up to three times, thus reaching a x7 multiplier."

 

One of the reasons for this is to fix the issue of Assassins' bonus only kicking in at very high levels. This way, an Assassin can take the +backstab feat at levels 2 and 4, and be ahead of other thieves for the rest of the game.

Edited January 13, 2018 by subtledoctor

[Zano]

 

I haven't had a chance to fully track it down, but in my latest modded install I ended up with a BACKSTAB.2DA that had backstab modifiers reduced on kits that should have normal thief progression (thief, bounty hunter, etc.) and the assassin reduced to the backstab multiplier of the stalker. As far as I can tell this mod would be the last that modified the BACKSTAB.2DA in my mod install order so I feel like this is the culprit. Any idea if that may be the case?

You can test that by renaming the backstab.2da in your override folder to something else (for backup). Then look for a version of backstab.2da inside the M&G/backup folders. Copy that one and put it into override.

If that solves the problem, you have an indication that M&G is the problem. If not, restore the renamed earlier file, (You may then use change-log to look for other possible culprits).

 

 

Or one can just go to the game folder, take any of the setup-modname.exe's and rename it as weidu.exe and run it and set these command lines into it, or make a .txt file, rename it as .bat and insert the command lines in it:

mkdir change-log

WeiDU.exe --log nul --change-log backstab.2da >change-log/change-log.txt --out change-log

And run the .bat ...

And then go to the folder and open the files with Notepad to find the real culprit.

 

Thanks for the info to both of you! Good to know for debugging if I run into similar issues in the future.

 

 

 

I haven't had a chance to fully track it down, but in my latest modded install I ended up with a BACKSTAB.2DA that had backstab modifiers reduced on kits that should have normal thief progression (thief, bounty hunter, etc.) and the assassin reduced to the backstab multiplier of the stalker. As far as I can tell this mod would be the last that modified the BACKSTAB.2DA in my mod install order so I feel like this is the culprit. Any idea if that may be the case?

If you installed the Feats component, then it will change backstab progression, by design. You can spend a feat to increase your multiplier.

 

From the Readme:

 

"A note about backstabbing: the base tables are simplified: x2 at level 1, x3 at level 9, and x4 at level 18. Shadowdancers' multiplier is 1 lower than other thieves. And Swashbuckers' multiplier is always x1. BUT, any thief can take the 'Backstab Bonus' feat once to improve the multiplier (to x5 for most thieves, x4 for Shadowdancers, and x2 for Swashbucklers). And Assassins may take that feat up to three times, thus reaching a x7 multiplier."

 

One of the reasons for this is to fix the issue of Assassins' bonus only kicking in at very high levels. This way, an Assassin can take the +backstab feat at levels 2 and 4, and be ahead of other thieves for the rest of the game.

 

 

That explains it then - thanks for the quick response!

Edited January 13, 2018 by Zano

[Caserius Tendook]

Hoping this is the right place for this question, let me know if not.

 

So I started a new SoD run and was trying out a Paladin (I thought).

When I look at the record sheet his class is listed as Martyr.............Not sure what that is supposed to be, but it's not the Paladin I thought I was getting.

I Rolled up the following:
Str. 18/81
Dex. 12
Con. 17
Int. 11
Wis. 13
Cha. 17

It lets me spend points on Two Handed weapon style but then Maxs out at Long Sword, it won't give me any options to spend proficency points in two handed swords, is there a problem with a Stat?

I have looked everywhere for an answer, but everything I'm seeing looks like the only real limitation should be Not being able to attain anything above Mastery. I'm playing SoD through an EET install, and wasn't thinking that should matter but I could certainly be wrong. If I'm not mistaken I chose Might and Guile during the EET set up process. I can post a Weidu Log if that would help.

Thanks

[subtledoctor]

Whatever it is, is not anything to do with this mod... MnG does not make any changes to paladins.

[Villarreal]

Hi! I have a problem with the mod. I installed the bard class overhaul and multi-class kits components. On the character creation screen some of the classes and kits have names and descriptions of items, game dialogues or other things. Because of this I can not know which kit I'm choosing. Please, you know how to fix this? Thanks in advance

 

here are some screenshots https://imgur.com/a/A0t5rT9

 

i installed the mod in BD1EE version: 2.3.67.3

[Jarno Mikkola]

i installed the mod in BD1EE version: 2.3.67.3

Doesn't look to be a regular BG1EE game, but rather a SoB'ed BG1EE, which probably requires the modmerge v2.0 tool to be installed before any other mods to have the dialog.tlk to be the one the game uses.

[Villarreal]

 

i installed the mod in BD1EE version: 2.3.67.3

Doesn't look to be a regular BG1EE game, but rather a SoB'ed BG1EE, which probably requires the modmerge v2.0 tool to be installed before any other mods to have the dialog.tlk to be the one the game uses.

 

What is SoB? anyway I reinstalled the game and then I installed the modmerge tool. I installed the mod and now looks like this https://imgur.com/TbLBt7k

 

Edited May 6, 2018 by Villarreal

[Jarno Mikkola]

 

 

i installed the mod in BD1EE version: 2.3.67.3

Doesn't look to be a regular BG1EE game, but rather a SoB'ed BG1EE, which probably requires the modmerge v2.0 tool to be installed before any other mods to have the dialog.tlk to be the one the game uses.

What is SoB? anyway I reinstalled the game and then I installed the modmerge tool. I installed the mod and now looks like this https://imgur.com/TbLBt7k

SoB... nothing, It's SoD, which is short for "Siege of the Dragonspear".

When you installed the game and started is, what was it's game language ? And did you change that ? ...

[Villarreal]

 

 

 

i installed the mod in BD1EE version: 2.3.67.3

Doesn't look to be a regular BG1EE game, but rather a SoB'ed BG1EE, which probably requires the modmerge v2.0 tool to be installed before any other mods to have the dialog.tlk to be the one the game uses.

What is SoB? anyway I reinstalled the game and then I installed the modmerge tool. I installed the mod and now looks like this https://imgur.com/TbLBt7k

SoB... nothing, It's SoD, which is short for "Siege of the Dragonspear".

When you installed the game and started is, what was it's game language ? And did you change that ? ...

 

 

I think the language of the mod setup was different from the language of the game. I reinstalled everything and now it works perfectly. Thank very much!

Edited May 6, 2018 by Villarreal

[mercurier]

Hi subtletdoctor,

 

The feat system looks really interesting to me. To my impression, fighters are getting combat advantages that were not accessible in vanilla game, and rogues can be built more combat-oriented even at low levels. While it is great fun doing so, I am concerned that non-joinable NPCs (i.e. mobs) will fall behind. Is it possible for MnG to grant them appropriate feats as SCS does for proficiencies? Here are some suggestions:

 

- Grant feats per class, kit, and level

- While generic rogues may want to select a mixture of adventure and combat feats, "professional" rogues, for example, those from a large organization and trained purely for assassination (sometimes with the word "assassin" in their names) may want to max-out their murdering skills

- If active feats involve complicated AI tuning, how about restricting the feat pool for NPCs to passive feats and pseudo-active feats that grant permanent on-hit effects?