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How it works? Items with bonus on max hp stacking.


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#1 Serg BlackStrider

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 05:32 AM

I have a question on how multiple items with bonus max hp work in conjunction with each other?

(Item Revisions by Demivrgvs: V4 Beta 9)

 

I have lvl 9 Xan with normal 36 hp. Equipping Robe of Battlemage (+10 max hp) bring him to 46 max hp. And adding Amulet of Health (+10 max hp) - to 56 max total.

 

Now I unequip both Robe of  Battlemage and Amulet of Health and have him sip Potion of Toughness (+20%) or Potion of Heroism (+10%) to end with 43 or 39 max hp.

 

And if after that I equip either Robe or Amulet or even both at the same time Xan's max hp drop -10 to 33 or 29 respectively. From now on that number doesn't change anymore no matter how many times I equip/unequip Robe and Amulet or both. So I end even with less than his normal naked max hp.

 

If I have him equipped both Robe and Amulet for 56 hp then sipping Potion of Heroism I end with 39 (naked +10%). Unequipping and then equipping either Robe or Amulet or both drop his hp by -10 to 29 total with no further changes...

 

Looks pretty weird to me...

 

And one more thing. Helm of Balduran has +5 max hp applied on equip just like Robe and Amulet. Viconia wear it and when I load/reload a save game her hp are 69/69 i.e. full health while Xan on load/reload always has 46/56 i.e. 10hp less then full health.

AFAIK all those three items apply bonus hp on equip. Why they work differently on load/reload a save game?

 

 

 

WeiDU :

Spoiler

Edited by Serg BlackStrider, 12 October 2017 - 05:50 AM.


#2 Jarno Mikkola

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 06:28 AM

AFAIK all those three items apply bonus hp on equip. Why they work differently on load/reload a save game?

The opcode 18 has multiple ways to apply the effect. Some are better than others, for reasons stated in the text... aka the mod maker wanted to have the object use the opcode as they wanted.

Also the item effects and spells etc have application order, and the 56 -> 39 is just a victim of the effect being trated from +20 hps to +10%. Had Xan been a 500 HP char, his hps would have jumped from 520 to 550..


Edited by Jarno Mikkola, 12 October 2017 - 06:34 AM.

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#3 Serg BlackStrider

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 08:09 AM

@Jarno Mikkola: Thanks for the input!

I've checked in NearInfinity all those items. Potion of Heroism cast *Aid*-like spell setting max hp to 110%. So drinking it naked Xan has his max/current hp = 39 (36+10%). Robe of Battlemage has opcode 18 type 0 (0 Cumulative Modifier -> HP = HP + 'Statistic Modifier' value (affects current and max HP)).

But if I equip Xan this Robe after drinking Potion of Heroism his hp drop to 29... And moreover, unlike Amulet of Health or Helm of Balduran, the target for the Robe is set to None(0) instead of Self(1). Looks like it's a bug. And alone with opcode 18 Robe has opcode 17 (Current HP) with Type Increment (0) and Value (-10). I don't quite understand the reason of applying opcode 17 Increment (0) Value (-10) and then opcode 18 type (0) Value (+10) instead of just applying opcode 18 Increment (3) Value (+10)...

 

All in all, as I understand, there is a point to use % potions (heroism or toughness) alone with "+ max hp" items only for characters with very high base hp. Even Khalid with capped and maximized 104 hp doesn't get any bonus of using a Potion of Heroism (+10%) alone with Amulet of Health (+10hp).

 

edit:

And still further inspection of Potion of Heroism in NI reveals that it doesn't work properly, imo. It cast spell with opcode 18 type Set % of (2) Value 110 i.e. should increase both current and max hp on 10% but it just drop Xan's max/current hp to 39 from max/current 56. The only explanation I have here is that if 56hp Xan, with both Robe and Amulet equipped, drink a Potion of Heroism then first the effect of Potion applied on his naked state to get 39hp and then both Robe's and Amulet's effects reapplied in mode 3 (without affecting his current hp). Pretty weird if you ask me.


Edited by Serg BlackStrider, 12 October 2017 - 09:32 AM.


#4 Jarno Mikkola

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 09:29 AM

Though, you should understand that the potion of heroism is easier to get than the amulet ... especially on a balance vice quest line, as it only last for so long, while the amulet is that or +1AC, save throws etc... etc. which has infinite useage.

If you go back and read the forum long ago enough, you'll probably see what Demi was trying to do with the -10HP's with the Robe.. I think it was time where the EE didn't have the 3, 4 and 5 types defined .. as it was still a few patches out. While the non-EE game still doesn't have them.


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#5 Serg BlackStrider

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 09:46 AM

If you go back and read the forum long ago enough, you'll probably see what Demi was trying to do with the -10HP's with the Robe.. I think it was time where the EE didn't have the 3, 4 and 5 types defined .. as it was still a few patches out. While the non-EE game still doesn't have them.

Understand. I play vanilla BGT (non EE). You mean that all those items with type (3) defined in current IR version I'm using now aren't work properly in my setup as it still doesn't have 3,4,5 types? And I should tweak them in the way - replace all type (3) with opcode 17 (-10) + opcode 18 (+10) for them to work properly in my setup?

 

edit: well, I just checked the Helm of Balduran in clean vanilla EasyTUTU and clean BG2 SoA/ToB and opcode 18 there has all 6 types defined and the Helm has *Modifier type Increment, don't update current HP (3)* set for it, so your last statement (While the non-EE game still doesn't have them) seems not true. 


Edited by Serg BlackStrider, 12 October 2017 - 10:14 AM.


#6 lynx

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 11:10 AM

looks like just a result of effect ordering to me. Buggy experience, sure, but nothing new.


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#7 CamDawg

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 07:49 PM

It's definitely an effect ordering thing. But there is a reason why you use opcode 18 in its different incarnations.

 

If you use any of the 'update current HP' options on the opcode, it opens an exploit for free healing by repeatedly removing and re-equipping an item with that property (demi's a lot more familiar with combining ops 17 and 18, so he's probably found a clever way around this). For items with limited use (e.g. potions), items that can't be removed, or spells, it's better to also update current HP (modes 3-5).


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#8 Serg BlackStrider

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 09:37 PM

If you use any of the 'update current HP' options on the opcode, it opens an exploit for free healing by repeatedly removing and re-equipping an item with that property.

 

Agree. And I have no complains here.

 

 For items with limited use (e.g. potions), items that can't be removed, or spells, it's better to also update current HP (modes 3-5).

The thing is that in current IR state Potions of Heroism & Toughness do -not- increase current hp. Drinking them drop current hp even lower than naked unbuffed. That's what bother me.

 

 


Known values for 'Type' are: 
0 Cumulative Modifier -> HP = HP + 'Statistic Modifier' value (affects current and max HP) 
1 Flat Value Modifier -> HP = 'Statistic Modifier' value (affects current and max HP) 
2 Percentage Modifier -> HP = (HP * 'Statistic Modifier' value) / 100 (affects current and max HP) 
3 As 0 (does not affect current HP) 
4 As 1 (does not affect current HP) 
5 As 2 (does not affect current HP) 

 

 

I think, in potions' case modes (types) 0 or 2 are better suited. But again in my current state Potion of Heroism with mode 2 (% modifier, affect both current and max hp) does -not- increase current hp. It -lower- them.

 

edit:

 


Note: For non-permanent timing modes of 'Type' 2 or 5 use the base maximum HP value, and therefor override other 'Type' 2 or 5 modifiers.

OK, got it - Potions use the base max hp. But still, I don't understand why if naked unbuffed Xan equip robe and amulet he end with 36/56 (all work fine, opcodes of those items in mode 3 apply correctly) while if naked unbuffed Xan drink a potion (end with 39/39) and -then- equip robe or amulet or both, nothing change - their effects (3) don't  apply at all. He still has 39/39


Edited by Serg BlackStrider, 12 October 2017 - 10:33 PM.


#9 Jarno Mikkola

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 10:44 PM

...current IR state...

Current ? Cause the V4 Beta 9 is NOT the current, the Revision version 1.09c is. Well, Demi didn't work on it, but it's still the community one that you might want to check out. Or just the Mike's v4.10.
Not that I know any of this is altered there, but still.


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#10 Serg BlackStrider

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 11:01 PM

 

...current IR state...

Current ? Cause the V4 Beta 9 is NOT the current, the Revision version 1.09c is. Well, Demi didn't work on it, but it's still the community one that you might want to check out. Or just the Mike's v4.10.
Not that I know any of this is altered there, but still.

 

Thanks. I've got my version with BWS a while ago and didn't know about Mike's v4.10 while I do know about 1.09c. I'll check them out. 





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