Psionics System Design

[Magus]

The problem with separating psionics and magic is that you have to do it both balanced and plausible. And the farther you separate them, the harder it is. If MR is ignored, spell protections don't work - how the mages are going to protect themselves?

Also, I'm so smart I can materialize a blade just by thinking about it. I'm so smart, I can pull myself from future to assist. And we both materialize these blades. And now we, two smartasses, are actually going to walk right to this monster and whack him with our blades until he's dead. I guess I could materialize this blade inside his spine to begin with, or better yet, just mince his brain, since there are no protections. But I didn't think about it. Strange... I'm so smart.

[subtledoctor]

The problem with separating psionics and magic is that you have to do it both balanced and plausible. And the farther you separate them, the harder it is. If MR is ignored, spell protections don't work - how the mages are going to protect themselves?

You act like MR and Spell Turning are the only ways to be protected. The fact that offensive psionics are limited to only a few effects means it's not hard to protect yourself.

- Chaotic Commands protects against most/all telepathic effects (+ more specific stuff like Protection from Fear)

 

- Free Action protects against most telekinetic effects

 

- Protection from/Resistance to elements protects against pyrokinetic effects

 

Plus, everything is mediated through saving throws. So just jack up your saves.

 

I guess I could materialize this blade inside his spine to begin with, or better yet, just mince his brain, since there are no protections. But I didn't think about it. Strange... I'm so smart.

.

 

Is your point to do with "realism?" Intelligence? Funny how no wizard ever thought to summon a Mordenkainen's Sword in the middle of someone's spine... but for some reason you don't hold that against the game?

[Magus]

The fact that offensive psionics are limited to only a few effects means

... it's implausible. That's what it means.

 

Chaotic Commands is magic. Saving throws are applied against magic. Now, you can say "psionics is not magic", but if it looks like a duck, swims like a duck...

 

"Pyrokinetics" is exactly "psionic fireball" that you've resented so much.

Notice that I've never suggested any specific arcane or divine spell copied to psionic version. (That's just stupid, really)

 

The mordenkainen sword spell description doesn't state that the wizard can summon the sword wherever he wishes.

 

The way I view psionics (and I think it's the way commonly described in d&d lore, please correct me if I'm wrong) is that psions are weaving their own Weave. In that light, you can view Mystra as a super-psion, providing through her abilities an API for wizards to access the raw magic.

A psion's "indie" Weave wouldn't be so powerful on one hand, but on the other hand it wouldn't be restricted by normal Weave limitations. Like the need to learn or memorize spells, or be restricted by spell levels, or getting rid of magical residue (improved alacrity all the time, yay!).

[subtledoctor]

... it's implausible. That's what it means.

 

Chaotic Commands is magic. Saving throws are applied against magic.

It's a user mod, for a computer game, based on fantastical fiction. There are three levels of abstraction (at least) allowing "plausible" to mean "whatever the modder says is plausible."

 

And you make saving throws against magic, as well as poison, disease, fire, tripping... saving throws are used for all sorts of things, no reason the same system can't be applied here.

 

The way I view psionics (and I think it's the way commonly described in d&d lore, please correct me if I'm wrong) is that psions are weaving their own Weave.

That's not any lore that I've ever heard of. But then, there have been no less than 7 different psionics systems described in AD&D over the years, not to mention others in 3rd-party books, Pathfinder, and other games that tend to influence modders around here. I'm not familiar with the particular system you are describing; it may be one of those 7 AD&D ones. But that hardly makes it the only one worth considering.

 

And anyway, thanks to mechanical engine limitations, it would be impossible to recreate any of those systems anyway, so this will necessarily be an invention that deviates from any and all extant lore. Point being, contributing cool and fun ideas from any source, or suggesting a mechanic like MR should work one way or another based on gameplay considerations, will be more helpful and better received than arguments about what is "canon" or "plausible."

[picollo]

http://www.shsforums.net/topic/55711-readme/

 

You are welcome

[bob_veng]

please look at op. it's been mentioned. i think it's a nice attempt but it doesn't feel like the real deal. it might be great for someone else but to me it feels so...perfunctory. like as if it exists so you could say there's psionics now and you're a psionicist but doesn't create a substantial new experience for the player. it's not thematically well wrought i think you can say for sure.

 

but let's not discuss that here, it's not the right place.

[subtledoctor]

http://www.shsforums.net/topic/55711-readme/

 

You are welcome

For what? Not a fan of that mod. (All due respect to the author - it's just not to my taste.)

 

I think it's worth discussing as an alternative... and perhaps to mine it for good ideas. As I said elsewhere, fi/when aquadrizzt creates this mod it will be the third psionics mod out there... I think that's great, players should enjoy more choices and use the one they like best. And all of the mods should share good ideas, so they will all be great in their own way.

[Magus]

1. Plausible trumps any other argument. This is a role playing game. Anything that ruins the suspension of disbelief is a no-no.

2. Disease, fire, cold, whatever you encounter in game - it's all magic. (The one I give you is poison. Yes, it's sensible that spiders are actually poisonous).

 

Now, can you come up with a plausible explanation why a psion wouldn't mince every enemy's brain as soon as he got access to a little telekinesis? And remember that you have to actually explain the MR, protections, saves, etc. Some arcane spells have no save, it's all explained and is part of the lore.

 

[subtledoctor]

Honestly not sure what you're trying to argue anymore. It sounds like you're claiming that your way is the Right Way and anyone who role-plays differently is somehow wrong. Which is a terrible thing to argue, because it is illogical by its own terms. I mean pretty much everything in these games is fundamentally implausible; but this is fiction, and "plausibility" is a very flexible term.

 

Now, can you come up with a plausible explanation why a psion wouldn't mince every enemy's brain as soon as he got access to a little telekinesis? And remember that you have to actually explain the MR, protections, saves, etc. Some arcane spells have no save, it's all explained and is part of the lore.

I've already made a psionics mod, so I'll answer for myself: a telekinetic can't mince people's brains because there is no "Mince Brain" power. You can't mince someone's brain with your hands, so you can't do it with your mind.

 

There is a "Tekekinetic Shove" ability, which is basically the same as shoving someone with your hands (except from 10 feet away). MR doesn't stop you shoving someone with your hands, so it doesn't stop you shoving someone with your mind. Psionics is not magic. There's your lore.

[Magus]

Honestly, that is absolutely the opposite of what I argue. I don't understand where you got that my way is the Right Way . I do share what I think, but that's what everyone does, isn't it? If you think that my line of thinking is not very consistent, point out the faults - I'm open to hear them.

 

> I've already made a psionics mod, so I'll answer for myself: a telekinetic can't mince people's brains because there is no "Mince Brain" power.

... because shenanigans. Because the moon is made of cheese.

Can you explain it so it's believable? In human words. Not because because.

[kjeron]

... because shenanigans. Because the moon is made of cheese.

Can you explain it so it's believable? In human words. Not because because.

Psionics are already a part of D&D, both rules and lore, they are not trying to invent something new here, only implement existing content.

[subtledoctor]

EDIT - sorry for feeding troll... I'm out

[Magus]

EDIT - sorry for feeding troll... I'm out

So if you don't have any more arguments, you call the opponent a troll. Out you are.

 

Psionics are already a part of D&D, both rules and lore, they are not trying to invent something new here, only implement existing content.

Yes, they are. The rules state that powers/magic are more or less interchangeable.

[subtledoctor]

Sigh. You are the only one arguing. Everyone else has been discussing.

 

Staying on topic, here is some source material:

 

https://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?740679-Let-s-Read-PHBR5-The-Complete-Psionics-Handbook/page2

 

(last post on that page... money quote: "Is psionics magic? No.")

[bob_veng]

let's discuss the class design in the complete psionics handbook, 2e

i think it's good for BG just needs nerfing

these are the basics (my opinion in parenthesis)

class name is psionicist (bad - psion is better and more common today)

base 2e race; human, halfling, dwarf, gnome, elf, half-elf (good)

must be non-chaotic (good)

min att WIS 15, INT 12, CON 11 (good)

can multi with fighter, thief (good)

no special fluff condition: no dragon-lineage, no midichlorians (bad! - absence of psions from the game is best explained with "rare inborn talent")

d6 (good)

thief thac0 progression (good)

2 + x5 pips (good)

armor: studded leather (good)

light and medium weapons and no heavy weapons like flail and bsword/twohander; no longbow (bad! restriction on heavy weapons is cosmetic and superfluous; str dump stat is enough to preclude use of them but not dumping str should enable at least this marginal benefit)

+2 save vs spell class bonus (good)

save table d/w/p/b/s: (lvl1) 13/15/10/16/15 > (lvl21) 8/5/5/9/7 (good)

level advancement very similar to fighter, slightly faster (good)

uses point system, number of points (called Psionic Strength Point) governed by WIS (good)

"spells" can be interrupted, same like cleric or mage (bad! too similar to magic, will make them look and feel like "casters")

ability check for spell: 1d20 roll against governing attribute minus difficulty modifier (bad! crap for crpg)

there is more obviously, i can go on...