Proposal: tweaking invisibility

[subtledoctor]

I don't know how half of these illusions/dispel illusions spells even work in SR to begin with

Here's what I just looked up with SR installed:

 

Detect Invisible (2nd-level mage) ->

-- opcode 136 dispels invisibility, but not improved invis. or sanctuary

-- opcode 193 allows caster to see through sanctuary, and target through improved invis.

This dispels basic invisibility, and lets the caster target improved invisible and sanctuaried enemies with magic.

 

Invisibility Purge (3rd-level priest) ->

-- opcode 116 dispels all types of invisibility (including improved invis. and sanctuary)

This just makes everything invisible, visible. It does NOT affect RI/MI/Blur.

 

Dispel Illusion (3rd-level mage) ->

-- opcode 221 dispels all spells < 5th-level with "illusionary protections" sectype

This dispels RI/MI/Blur/Ghost Armor, as well as Invisibility and Improved Invisibility

 

Oracle (5th-level Mage) ->

-- opcode 220 dispels all enemies' spells in the Illusion school

-- opcode 221 dispels all spells with "illusionary protections" sectype (including "Invisibility")

-- opcode 116 dispels all types of invisibility (including improved invis. and sanctuary)

This outright dispels any illusionary protections (RI/MI/Blur) as well as any kind of invisibility, as well as Mislead/PI clones (I think?)

 

True Sight (5th-level priest/6th-level mage) ->

-- opcode 101 protection from Blindness

-- make illusionary summons glow

-- opcode 136 dispels invisibility, but not improved invis. or sanctuary, every round for 10 rounds

-- opcode 193 allows caster to see through sanctuary and target through improved invis.

-- opcode 220 dispels all enemies' spells in the Illusion school up to 2nd level

This outright dispels RI/MI/Blur and Invisibility, and lets the caster target improved invisible and sanctuaried enemies with magic.

 

Demi tried to thread a needle with True Sight in SR, making it more personal in this way without weakening it. That's why you can see that TS is actually less powerful than Oracle in some ways (Oracle outright dispels stuff like Imp. Invis./Shadow Door and Mislead/PI)... but on the other hand TS lasts for a duration and allows the caster to see and target anybody with spells, so you can Breach or Pierce enemy casters that are protected by Improved Invisibility, without having to actually dispel the invisibility. SR makes Improved Invisibility a bit more robust, without making it an automatic win in mage battles. (Note that Nondetection will protect you from Invisibility Purge, Detect Illusion, and Oracle, but will NOT protect you from See Invisible or True Sight.)

 

My tweak adding a sanctuary effect to regular invisibility weakens the 2nd-level See Invisible spell, making it so that really only the caster can see the invisible person. (But, sanctuary doesn't allow you to backstab, and it is broken if you do anything offensive, so it's not like the invisible person can do anything but hide from the people who can't see invisible.)

 

So I see two things here:

 

1) Detect Illusion is just a watered-down version of Oracle, that fails against illusions of 5th+ level. I hate that kind of crap. I would propose replacing it with the priest spell, Invisibility Purge, which would have a more distinct application among the other mage spells. (Sort of a "Mass See Invisible," so a nice boost over the 2nd-level spell immediately preceding it.) This would buff RI/MI/Blur, because they could only be dispelled by Oracle. But, honestly, does anyone ever actually cast Detect Illusion, vs. just pelting the wizard with arrows until the images are gone??

 

2) True Sight seems a little weak. Admittedly the vanilla version is probably too powerful, but I think this needs a bit of a boost. I would suggest something like, cut illusionary summons' hit points by 50% in addition to making them glow; or hit the with some other weakening effect, like Slow or something.

 

OR: maaaaybe give the True Sight caster opcode 100 protection against illusionary creatures - he disbelieves them, so they can't hurt him! This would be nice against the IWD Shadow Monsters spells, and would really give you a leg up against PI clones (which makes sense if you have True Sight).

Edited April 9, 2018 by subtledoctor

[Daxtreme]

OR: maaaaybe give the True Sight caster opcode 100 protection against illusionary creatures - he disbelieves them, so they can't hurt him! This would be nice against the IWD Shadow Monsters spells, and would really give you a leg up against PI clones (which makes sense if you have True Sight).

 

 

That's very interesting! Is that something that's possible?

[kreso]

 

OR: maaaaybe give the True Sight caster opcode 100 protection against illusionary creatures - he disbelieves them, so they can't hurt him! This would be nice against the IWD Shadow Monsters spells, and would really give you a leg up against PI clones (which makes sense if you have True Sight).

 

 

That's very interesting! Is that something that's possible?

 

I think yes; iirc thAT's how vanilla pro Undead scroll works. Afaik ILLUSIONARY exists...

[subtledoctor]

Coding-wise, it would be very simple.

 

ACTION_IF FILE_EXISTS_IN_GAME ~sppr505.spl~ BEGIN
  COPY_EXISTING ~sppr505.spl~ ~override~
	LPF CLONE_EFFECT INT_VAR silent = 1 multi_match = 1 match_opcode = 193 opcode = 100 parameter2 = 7 parameter1 = 7 END
  BUT_ONLY
END
ACTION_IF FILE_EXISTS_IN_GAME ~spwi609.spl~ BEGIN
  COPY_EXISTING ~spwi609.spl~ ~override~
	LPF CLONE_EFFECT INT_VAR silent = 1 multi_match = 1 match_opcode = 193 opcode = 100 parameter2 = 7 parameter1 = 7 END
  BUT_ONLY
END
ACTION_IF FILE_EXISTS_IN_GAME ~spcl232.spl~ BEGIN
  COPY_EXISTING ~spcl232.spl~ ~override~
	LPF CLONE_EFFECT INT_VAR silent = 1 multi_match = 1 match_opcode = 193 opcode = 100 parameter2 = 7 parameter1 = 7 END
  BUT_ONLY
END

 

 

The question is only whether it would really have the effect we envision.

 

EDIT - if any intrepid players want to try this stuff out (and are playing EE games), you can install the "Invisibility Tweaks" component of my experimental branch of Tome & Blood on top of SR.

Edited April 10, 2018 by subtledoctor

[subtledoctor]

By the way, in making and testing that, I noticed that SR does not apply the same True Sight changes to SPCL232 (the Inquisitor ability) that it does to SPPR505 and SPWI609. This was noted a while ago. But the thread moved in a different direction before anyone addressed the Inquisitor ability.

 

My suggestion, SR should change SPCL232 to simply cast SPPR505. OOOORR... actually change the Inquisitor ability from True Sight, to simply Detect Invisible, i.e. (given this thread) make it a personal effect for the Inquisitor only. (But that's probably more of a KR thing... for now the best/easiest idea is to simply use opcode 146 to cast SPPR505.)

 

And funny thing, apparently I already had the idea to make TS give protection from illusionary creatures two years ago! heh heh. Great minds think... like themselves?

 

In fact, Demi in that thread suggested that something like this was already in the works:

TS will do something against illusionary creatures, rest assured, the current "highlight" effect was a preparation for it.

 

But nothing beyond the highlighting ever made it into SR. I wonder what he was planning...?

Edited April 11, 2018 by subtledoctor

[subtledoctor]

That thread actually has a bunch of interesting discussion. I'll note here and now that, if I understand kjeron correctly, then:

 

 

allowing all party members & summons to suffer no penalties against Imp.invis. isn't something I'd endorse.

Keep the penalties, just make them targetable

 

Can't

 

...This actually is possible, by combining a 136 effect with party-wide 193. This would make II enemies still be II, but would be targetable by all party members. So maybe there is room for a "True Sight on steroids" spell...

Edited April 11, 2018 by subtledoctor

[Jarno Mikkola]

That thread actually has a bunch of interesting discussion. I'll note here and now that, if I understand kjeron correctly, then:

allowing all party members & summons to suffer no penalties against Imp.invis. isn't something I'd endorse.

Keep the penalties, just make them targetable

Can't

...This actually is possible, by combining a 136 effect with party-wide 193. This would make II enemies still be II, but would be targetable by all party members. So maybe there is room for a "True Sight on steroids" spell...

Sorry man, but a man that casted Improved Invisibility that's then not invisible, is NOT invisible. Yes, the difference is a definition and such {$£€, anyways yes they'll be protected by the half visibility effect of the spell while still be targetable by everyone, and Bob. Which was you point.

Edited April 11, 2018 by Jarno Mikkola

[subtledoctor]

 

That thread actually has a bunch of interesting discussion. I'll note here and now that, if I understand kjeron correctly, then:

allowing all party members & summons to suffer no penalties against Imp.invis. isn't something I'd endorse.

Keep the penalties, just make them targetable

Can't

...This actually is possible, by combining a 136 effect with party-wide 193. This would make II enemies still be II, but would be targetable by all party members. So maybe there is room for a "True Sight on steroids" spell...

Sorry man, but a man that casted Improved Invisibility that's then not invisible, is NOT invisible. Yes, the difference is a definition and such {$£€, anyways yes they'll be protected by the half visibility effect of the spell while still be targetable by everyone, and Bob. Which was you point.

 

 

Neither opcode 136 nor opcode 193 cancels the "improved invisible" effect. (I.e. opcode 20, param2=1). So when I said II (improved invisible) enemies are still II (improved invisible), it is true. They are literally still under the effect of the invisibility opcode. You can target them, with spells or weapons, but I believe creatures with II retain the +4 AC and save bonuses even against creatures with 193 detection.

 

So the point is, this would be a way to create a "Mass True Sight" spell that doesn't render Improved Invisibility meaningless. Even if you cast this spell, II enemies would still get some benefit for being II, unless and until you cast Oracle. (And if they have Non-Detection, 5th-level Oracle will fail while this ~7th level Mass True Sight will still be (largely) effective. Yay balance!)

Edited April 11, 2018 by subtledoctor