True Grandmastery&Multiclass Grandmastery

[Salk]

Hello!

 

Are there out there Mods that are incompatible with the above mentioned components or even Mods that make it redundant?

 

Thanks!

[Miloch]

I dunno, Baldurdash, Ease of Use?

[Salk]

Well,

 

I knew that Big Picture doesn't allow them (but it's not a Mod I am installing) but I was wondering if there are more out there.

 

I am a bit uncertain anyway about installing Multiclass Grandmastery myself though: I, like for other aspects, don't find this restriction very logical but on the other hand I guess that multiclassed should have more penalties than just the slower level advancement so...

[Miloch]

I am a bit uncertain anyway about installing Multiclass Grandmastery myself though: I, like for other aspects, don't find this restriction very logical but on the other hand I guess that multiclassed should have more penalties than just the slower level advancement so...

It is not permitted per 2e canon rules for the reason you describe, if that helps at all. Though I must admit, I'm usually tempted to install it for my fighter multi-class characters, since they otherwise use fighter proficiency rules...

 

Why doesn't BP allow it?

[Demivrgvs]

I am a bit uncertain anyway about installing Multiclass Grandmastery myself though: I, like for other aspects, don't find this restriction very logical but on the other hand I guess that multiclassed should have more penalties than just the slower level advancement so...

It is not permitted per 2e canon rules for the reason you describe, if that helps at all.

You're right, but the restriction seems even more strange if you think that only multiclassed fighters receives an added restriction. This also makes ranger/cleric unquestionably a much better choice over a fighter/cleric because the only real advantage of fighters over rangers is exactly Grandmastery.

[Salk]

I am a bit uncertain anyway about installing Multiclass Grandmastery myself though: I, like for other aspects, don't find this restriction very logical but on the other hand I guess that multiclassed should have more penalties than just the slower level advancement so...

It is not permitted per 2e canon rules for the reason you describe, if that helps at all. Though I must admit, I'm usually tempted to install it for my fighter multi-class characters, since they otherwise use fighter proficiency rules...

 

Why doesn't BP allow it?

 

Well, there was a topic when Horred was still supporting BP (it was just few months before the release of BP 177) where he clearly stated that Weimer's Multiclass Grandmastery and True Grandmastery would mess up with BP's internal system.

 

There is also a reply of mine to Camdawg about this:

 

http://www.shsforums.net/index.php?showtopic=20240&st=43

 

Like you I was/am tempted to have the Multiclass Grandmastery installed to benefit my multiclass fighter but I would like to stick to a non cheating game.

 

Personally though there is one "cheat" I will certainly install: the Wear Multiple Protection Items -> No Restrictions.

 

Not even the P&P Restriction makes sense to me at in this case so I just allow my characters to stack on protections from different sources and I feel good with my conscience.

 

Oh and I am also wanting maximum HPs at level up (because practically every enemy has its HPs maximized). Those are the two extra benefits I ask of the game when I play, together with the True Grandmastery.

 

Well, I guess it makes three "cheats" for me...

[Bursk]

Salk, it's interesting you should mention HP, because I've been wondering recently how much more difficult "Maximum HP for NPCs: For All Creatures in Game" makes things.

 

Does anyone know? Is your average dragon going to have 1000 extra HP?! If it's going to be too difficult I'll just stick to "Joinable NPCs only".

[Miloch]

Well, there was a topic when Horred was still supporting BP (it was just few months before the release of BP 177) where he clearly stated that Weimer's Multiclass Grandmastery and True Grandmastery would mess up with BP's internal system.

 

There is also a reply of mine to Camdawg about this:

http://www.shsforums.net/index.php?showtopic=20240&st=43

Well those are pretty dated and a bit inconclusive... I'm trying to figure out how multiclass grand mastery could hose a mod but not single class grand mastery. But whatever, BP is weird with some things I guess.

 

I think the multiple protection items is how it is for balance reasons, but I guess it only makes sense if you "buy" the stated reason (which I think is like the powerful enchantments just can't reside with each other or some such thing, heh).

 

Demivrgvs has a point about multi F/Cs and C/Rs. Also, keep in mind as I mentioned elsewhere, canon proficiency rules don't even really cover mastery or grandmastery - they only go to three "stars" and what information there is rather vague and can be handled several different ways (for example the broad BG1 proficiency groups and the narrow BG2 ones are both valid and have different rules for each). So I don't consider the multiclass tweak that much of a "cheat."

 

On the other hand, the "true" grandmastery tweak is probably more so of one, or at least has more of a chance to unbalance things (there was undoubtedly a reason they nerfed things going from BG1 to BG2).

 

And as you say, most enemies already have maximum HP, so that one probably doesn't make a huge difference.

 

Edit: it's been a while since I've actually done a game with these tweaks (or any game) so I don't recall - does the multiclass one let you attain grandmastery for any multis or just fighter multis? If the former, it's definitely a cheat...

[Icendoan]

It's any multis

 

Icen

[Arkain]

Well, the EoU version allows it only for fighter multis. Is the one used in Tweak Pack any different?

[Miloch]

Well, the EoU version allows it only for fighter multis. Is the one used in Tweak Pack any different?

Edit: No, it only gives 5 stars to fighter multis. The other multis get skipped because they can't get more than 1 star anyway, unless you've got some mod that's messed with that (and the column count doesn't go up to cleric/rangers - I thought it might originally). So it appears that this time at least, Icen is wrong .

 

And is it just me, or does anyone else think barbarians should get more than 2 stars? Particularly half-orc barbarians...

COPY_EXISTING ~weapprof.2da~ ~override~
 FOR (row = 11; row < 31; row += 1) BEGIN
READ_2DA_ENTRY row 52 1 stars
PATCH_IF stars > 1 BEGIN
  SET_2DA_ENTRY_LATER ~multigrand~ row 52 5
END
 END
 SET_2DA_ENTRIES_NOW ~multigrand~ 1
BUT_ONLY

Like some wuss such as Khalid could out-wield Conan. I'm sorry, but no. Being as how barbarian is essentially a fighter kit in 2e, I'm willing to consider this a bug .

[Salk]

Nah, no bug (and in my self made party, one is an half orc barbarian).

 

It's just there for balancing purpouses.

 

Some of these restrictions are harder to swallow than others but I guess I can accept the limitation to two stars only. It's true it's a fighter kit but the Barbarian has really nice extra abilities compared to a fighter so I can accept it.

 

About the Multiclass Grandmastery, I am not so sure but I will end up not installing it.

 

I will install instead True Grandmastery because even if I understand that Bioware wanted to nerf it, I still think that a non kitted Figther should have this extra edge of taking full advantage of P&P Grandmastery. In fact, the fifth star should represent the ultimate knowledge of the weapon and a miserable improvement of one point of damage in the nerfed version seems to me unfit. Also isn't it so that enemies with Grand Mastery will also take advantage of the P&P Grand Mastery?

 

And I am all feeling good and cozy about installing the No Restrictions wearing multiple magical objects (I think it's a really silly limitation in any sense).

[aVENGER_(RR)]

Also, keep in mind as I mentioned elsewhere, canon proficiency rules don't even really cover mastery or grandmastery - they only go to three "stars" and what information there is rather vague and can be handled several different ways (for example the broad BG1 proficiency groups and the narrow BG2 ones are both valid and have different rules for each).

 

Actually, both High Mastery and Grand Mastery are covered in the "Combat and Tactics" supplement:

 

High Mastery

 

By spending a second slot on mastery, a character can become a high master. By this time, the character has spent four slots on a single weapon and is at least 6th level. High masters increase the speed factor of their chosen weapon by one category; for example, a slow weapon in the hands of a high master is automatically considered to be of average speed. High masters also score critical hits on rolls of 16 or higher rather than 18 (if the optional critical hit system is used) that hit their opponent by a margin of 5 or more. High masters who specialize in bows, crossbows, slings, or firearms gain a new range category: extreme range. For all weapons, extreme range is 1/3 farther than long range. For example, if a weapon has a normal maximum range of 18 squares, in the hands of a master it can shoot 24 (1/3x18=6, 18+6=24) squares. Extreme range shots have a -10 penalty to hit before adjustments are made for the effects of mastery.

 

Grand Mastery

 

High masters who spend one more slot on learning their weapon of choice can become grand masters. Grand masters are capable of feats of swordplay that border on the fantastic. Grand masters gain one additional attack per round above and beyond a specialist's rate of attacks for their level, so a 12th-level melee weapon grand master would attack 3 times per round with his weapon of choice. Grand masters also increase the amount of damage and the chance of a knockdown when they employ their chosen weapon. The weapon's base damage die and knockdown die are increased to the next greater die size against all opponents. A long sword thus inflicts 1d10/1d20 points of damage in the hands of a grand master, and its knockdown die is increased to a d10. If the weapon causes multiple dice of damage, all of them are increased. Thus, a two-handed sword in the hands of a grand master inflicts 3d8 points of damage on large targets. Needless to say, grand masters are extremely dangerous opponents.

[Miloch]

Nah, no bug (and in my self made party, one is an half orc barbarian). It's just there for balancing purpouses.

 

Some of these restrictions are harder to swallow than others but I guess I can accept the limitation to two stars only. It's true it's a fighter kit but the Barbarian has really nice extra abilities compared to a fighter so I can accept it.

Heh, you can accept something put in strictly for "balance" that has no basis in sense or in the rules, but not the PnP protection item "balance" which is along much the same lines? A strange contradiction . Also, berserkers and kensai get the 5 stars too. And here's another fact: the Wizard Slayer is a barbarian kit in 2e, and the Bioware version is almost verbatim from the Complete Barbarian's Handbook. So if you think barbarians should be limited to 2 stars (for which I can find no evidence), you'd have to limit the wizard slayer similarly. And why would you gimp an already gimped kit?

 

I still think that a non kitted Figther should have this extra edge of taking full advantage of P&P Grandmastery.

Ok, but is it just for non-kitted fighters?

In fact, the fifth star should represent the ultimate knowledge of the weapon and a miserable improvement of one point of damage in the nerfed version seems to me unfit.

It isn't just a point - by this time, usually your fighter is hitting several times a round so multiply it by the APR. Also, your weapon speed has gone up at 4 stars and if you're using "true" grand mastery, you get another APR every 2 rounds. So stack those multipliers on top of it too.

 

@aVENGER_(RR): Thanks for the info. Does it mention at all which classes/kits are eligible? According to the PHB (p. 60), paladins and rangers can't even go beyond one star, so I don't know if it makes allowances for them also.

[Icendoan]

I know I was wrong. I cannot be perfect all the time, no?

 

 

Icen