[Idea] Fun with weapon proficiencies

[CamDawg]

Based on the discussion ensuing from the flail/morningstar/frying pan/club weapon discussion in a separate thread, I wanted to open this idea up a bit more.

 

The general idea is a re-grouping of the weapon proficiencies; i.e. maces could be combined with clubs into a single proficiency and perhaps the scimitar/wakizashi/ninja-to group could be separated. One thing to keep in mind is that we are limited to the curent number of proficiencies, so we can't just break out new profs without consolidating or eliminating at lkeast an equal number of current ones. Changes to the various weapon styles are out--there's not a lot we can change about them (hardcoded to a fair degree), and we certainly can not substitute them with specific weapons.

 

Since the original discussion was morningstar-centric, the suggestions so far reflect this:

• Combine mace and club profs
  
• Combine mace and morningstar profs
  
• Combine morningstar and flail profs
  
• Break up the scimitar/wakizashi/ninja-to grouping (perhap cobine katana and wakizashi profs)
  

I know there are ancient weapon buffs and rules lawyers who love to appear in these discussions, so now's your chance.

[Ghreyfain]

How can you combine clubs and maces, maces and morning stars, and morningstars and flails? Isn't that all just one big jumbly mess?

 

Club, Mace, Morning Star = 1 Proficiency. Choosing points in this reflects the character's proficiency in smashing things with a stick with a knobbly bit on the end.

 

Flail = 1 proficiency. This indicates that a character is skilled in swinging a ball on a chain (handle included!) , thereby allowing him to smash things with it.

 

At least, that's how I read things, and that's how I think things make sense.

[BigRob]

Well, that'd make sense to me, if there's going to be weapon proficiencies combined. I'd love to see each weapon type with its own proficiency and then include weapon familiarity so that when you know how to swing a mace, you're only a little bit worse with a morning star (which is a slightly different weapon to use). But with limited proficiency slots, that ain't gonna happen.

[CamDawg]

How can you combine clubs and maces, maces and morning stars, and morningstars and flails?  Isn't that all just one big jumbly mess?

That was more of a 'here are individual ideas proposed,' not an overview. Because, yeah, ugly.

[Idobek]

I'm glad your game Cam, I thought I'd annoyed you by bringing it up. I'll do the work if you don't want to, of course that'll mean a longer wait.

 

My thoughts for proficiency groupings:

• Club/Mace/Morningstar
  
• Scimitar
  
• Katana/Wakizashi
  
• Flail
  
• Short Sword/Ninja-To (A ninja-to being a ninja's short sword and all.)
  

There are a couple of other things I'd change too, but I'm not going to bring those up. They're a lot of work for not a lot of gain, I'll definately do them myself.

[Guest Borsook]

Club, Mace, Morning Star = 1 Proficiency.  Choosing points in this reflects the character's proficiency in smashing things with a stick with a knobbly bit on the end.

 

Flail = 1 proficiency.  This indicates that a character is skilled in swinging a ball on a chain (handle included!) , thereby allowing him to smash things with it.

 

At least, that's how I read things, and that's how I think things make sense.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well, I don't remember how it looks in BG2 but in real life isn't Morgenstern (Morningstar) a very short "stick" with a chain and a ball? So it should go with flails not maces cause the technic is much different... BTW it would be nice to meddle with proficienty system - anyone can hit with a mace, training is not that essential but to hit anyone (exept oneself probably) with a flail/morning star is not that easy...

[NiGHTMARE]

No, in real life the term "morning star" was invented to describe a mace-like weapon with spikes attached to the head. Morning stars are like this in both the BG series and pnp AD&D.

[Guest Guest]

No, in real life the term "morning star" was invented to describe a mace-like weapon with spikes attached to the head.  Morning stars are like this in both the BG series and pnp AD&D.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

then I think our slavic weaponry was a bit different

[NiGHTMARE]

After doing some research, I've found that despite "morgenstern" translating in to English as "morning star", morgensterns and morning stars are in fact different weapons .

[Guest Borsook]

After doing some research, I've found that despite "morgenstern" translating in to English as "morning star", morgensterns and morning stars are in fact different weapons .

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes it seems it got me confused, I don't know the historical reasons but I know of 3 weapon kinds that are all for the English simply "flails"...

[Fallen_Demon]

How will npcs be affected? For example, if clubs are merged into the current mace proficency and ninja-tos (is that the correct plural) are put where clubs are now, would that mean Jaheira would have proficency in ninja-tos even though she both can't use them as a druid and it makes no sense for her to have training in them, or can weidu auto-patching take care of this?

[NiGHTMARE]

Yes, it can. Relatively easily too .

[Kish]

Would it make any difference? She can't use ninja-tos, so it wouldn't change anything for her to be proficiently not wielding them instead of nonproficiently not wielding them.

[CamDawg]

@fallen_demon

I see what you're getting at, but I don't think the changes will be that dramatic to necessitate NPC changes. That being said, I'll certainly keep it in mind and will include patching for NPCs if that's the case.

 

Idobek's proposals are fairly in line with what I've been pondering. A few changes would be that I don't like the club/mace/morningstar grouping. Morningstars have spikes so that they could be wielded more effectively against plate armor since they can pierce, as opposed to clubs and maces which just crush. I would consider them closer to warhammers, which generally are two-headed (hammer one side, spike on the other for plate-clad opponents). However, BG2 warhammers are spike-free (presumably due to the goofy 2e clerics-don't-like-pointy-things restriction).

 

I'm not terribly familiar with ninja-tos and why they were not included with another prof at the outset. They seem fairly similar to short swords in their usage, but I'm hoping someone who's trained with one can elaborate.

[Drew]

The Ninjato is 36 inches long. I believe it would be better classified as a long sword. I don't like the idea of the katana and wakizashi being classified together. A katana is actually more like a bastard sword and while it can be wielded in one hand it is really meant to be wielded 2 handed. Very few samurai ever actually used the katana and wakizashi in tandem. I'd prefer to see the katana grouped with the bastard sword as they are of similar length, weight and balance. Yes, I know this doesn't match up to 2e rules but anyone who thinks you can wield (in one hand) a katana as easily as a scimitar has probably never held a scimitar or a katana.

 

My suggestion would be to group maces, morning stars and clubs together. Group the ninjato with long swords, the katana with bastard swords, the scimitar by itself and the wakizashi with short swords. It isn't perfect, but the dimensions of the weapons would better match up that way imho.