Kit Revisions (Fighters)

[yarpen]

Thus you'd keep the hindrance?

Yup, every additional hindrance for Barbarian is good. What do you think about being Iliteral for Barbarians? In 3rd edition they've got this quite big hindrance - they cannot use any scrolls. I think that it fits them and make additional, great difference between them and fighters (and berserker).

 

Which class are you talking about?

Monk and Barbarian. Both of them thanks to a lot of advantages looks like "not from this game". It would be far easier to remove them from game - and don't have any problem with rebalancing fighters.

[Demivrgvs]

Thus you'd keep the hindrance?

Yup, every additional hindrance for Barbarian is good. What do you think about being Iliteral for Barbarians? In 3rd edition they've got this quite big hindrance - they cannot use any scrolls. I think that it fits them and make additional, great difference between them and fighters (and berserker).

Well, in PnP it's also quite easy for them to subsequently learn to read.

 

Which class are you talking about?

Monk and Barbarian. Both of them thanks to a lot of advantages looks like "not from this game". It would be far easier to remove them from game - and don't have any problem with rebalancing fighters.

Actually barbarians do existed even in AD&D, and I like them being there. If we talk about monks instead I probably agree with you, monks seem a little out of place.

 

Regarding their power level though I don't think Barbarian class was too powerful, not being able to dual is probably a very good way to keep at bay overpowered combinations. Monk is very difficult to judge, is some circumstances it seems too weak, in others it seems overpowered.

[yarpen]

Barbarians in AD&D had only alternative starting equipment and +2/-2 bonus to reaction rolls to people from wilderness/city. BG2's barbarian abilities come from 3rd edition. And they suck. Especially lack of fatigue after barbarian rage. 3.5 ed. SRD says

 

At the end of the rage, the barbarian loses the rage modifiers and restrictions and becomes fatigued (-2 penalty to Strength, -2 penalty to Dexterity, can’t charge or run) for the duration of the current encounter (unless he is a 17th-level barbarian, at which point this limitation no longer applies).

 

When based on 3.5 edition (which I think is a good revision) Barbarian looks much better. (I've changed Constitution bonus in Rage into Dexterity - as you said, Whirlwind Frenzy).

 

- Rage starts with +2 bonus to Strenght and Dexterity, -2 AC penalty, +1 to save vs. spells for 5 rounds.

- Everytime when he's struck under his rage there is 5% chance for go berserk for next 2 rounds.

- After Rage there is -2 to Strenght and Dexterity penalty, -2 AC penalty and movements of Barbarian are slowed.

- At 5th level becomes immune to backstab.

- At 7th level bonus raise to +4/+4 and save vs. spells bonus rise to +2.

- At 10th level gains 5% damage reduction, which rises by additional +5% at 15th and 20th.

- At 17th level there's no fatigue after rage.

- HLA "Mighty Rage": which raises Rage bonuses to +6/+6 and save vs. spells bonus to +3.

 

- Barbarian cannot use heavy armours, scrolls and wands.

- Barbarian is limited to 2 profinency points.

[Demivrgvs]

Barbarians in AD&D had only alternative starting equipment and +2/-2 bonus to reaction rolls to people from wilderness/city. BG2's barbarian abilities come from 3rd edition. And they suck. Especially lack of fatigue after barbarian rage. 3.5 ed. SRD says

Well, actually it was a little more different. Look here.

 

I already said barbarians should be fatigued too after a rage, I obviously agree on this matter.

 

When based on 3.5 edition (which I think is a good revision) Barbarian looks much better. (I've changed Constitution bonus in Rage into Dexterity - as you said, Whirling Frenzy).

 

- Rage starts with +2 bonus to Strenght and Dexterity, -2 AC penalty, +1 to save vs. spells for 5 rounds.

- Everytime when he's struck under his rage there is 5% chance for go berserk for next 2 rounds.

- After Rage there is -2 to Strenght and Dexterity penalty, -2 AC penalty and movements of Barbarian are slowed.

- At 5th level becomes immune to backstab.

- At 10th level gains 5% damage reduction, which rises by additional +5% at 15th and 20th.

- At 11th level bonus raise to +4/+4 and save vs. spells bonus rise to +2.

- At 17th level there's no fatigue after rage.

- HLA "Mighty Rage": which raises Rage bonuses to +6/+6 and save vs. spells bonus to +3.

 

- Barbarian cannot use heavy armours, scrolls and wands.

- Barbarian is limited to 2 profinency points.

PnP Whirling Frenzy ported into 2nd edition would look like this: +2 STR (instead of 4 in 3.5), +2 AC (dodge bonus), +2 saves vs. breath (instead of Reflex), +1 attack per round (we should probably opt for +1/2 at least at low levels), -2 penalty on attack rolls.

 

If we keep the 'no dual class' hindrance we can make this ability progress with barbarian levels.

[yarpen]

Look here.

I was using only oficial rulebooks - and there's only barbarian as fighter kit.

 

PnP Whirlwind Frenzy ported into 2nd edition would look like this: +2 STR (instead of 4 in 3.5), +2 AC (dodge bonus), +2 saves vs. breath (instead of Reflex), +1 attack per round (we should probably opt for +1/2 at least at low levels), -2 penalty on attack rolls.

For me: cool but I'm not sure that all player will agree with changing most renown ability of Barbarian - RAGEEEEE!!!!!!! ;-)

[Icendoan]

I would view Beserkers and Barbarians as different ends of the same stick: while a Barbarian would Rage into moving incredibly fast, and hitting very fast, with lighter armour and a Thac0 penalty, perhaps even a damage penalty as well.

 

On the other hand, the Beserkers would be almost as powerfully offensive, but simply be able to shrug off damage and more importantly, keep on going.

 

Therefore, I suggest for the Barbarian:

Movement Increase similar to Haste

APR Set to 5.

Thac0 Penalty of 3

Damage Penalty of 3

+0 Elemental damage (caster hate)

Duration: 5 rounds.

Cannot use Spells or Innate Abilities.

Sensible immunities.

 

When Winded (1 Turn), unconscious (first round only), -10Thac0 1APR; - progressively faster movement, Thac0 and APR. (In 10%/round, but APR can just be lifted halfway through). Cannot cast spells or use Innate Abilities.

 

Beserkers (1 Turn):

Damage +3

Thac0 + 3

HP + 10/4 levels (till +50 at 20th level)

APR set to 3/2

If hit below 25% HP during the first 5 rounds, the Beserker gains 5HP/3 Levels, to a max of 40HP at 20th level.

Damage Reduction of 15%.

Movement penalty of 15%.

More extreme immunities.

 

When winded (7 rounds):

30% movement, 1APR, -7 Thac0, -7 Damage, gradual progression back to normal.

 

Icen

[Demivrgvs]

Look here.

I was using only oficial rulebooks - and there's only barbarian as fighter kit.

I've used that link because I can't show you The Complete Barbarian's Handbook, which I think is considered quite official.

 

PnP Whirling Frenzy ported into 2nd edition would look like this: +2 STR (instead of 4 in 3.5), +2 AC (dodge bonus), +2 saves vs. breath (instead of Reflex), +1 attack per round (we should probably opt for +1/2 at least at low levels), -2 penalty on attack rolls.

For me: cool but I'm not sure that all player will agree with changing most renown ability of Barbarian - RAGEEEEE!!!!!!! ;-)

Well, that is pratically the only thing we're going to change (though a quite noticeable one), except perhaps a small re-adjustment of the physical resistance, thus players who prefer vanilla's Rage won't miss much by not playing the revised kit. Jokes aside, as of now I've only heard players who'd like such a change...

[Ardanis]

BTW how about turning kensai into NWN's weapon master? To avoid the 10 kits GUI's limitation PC is given a one-time ability which will let them to select their weapon of choice and then assign a 'real' kit.

 

Sadly, #183 seems to be not working, so it would take to macropatch every weapon instead.

 

As for the kit's parameters themselves, I'm thinking about

 

1) bonuses to hit, damage, speed and critical chance (too bad there's no changeable critical multiplier in IE) with the weapon of choice

2) penalties to hit and damage with other weapons

3) no armor or proficiency restrictions

 

Obviously, hit/dam bonuses should be lowered down alot to balance it out, say 1/6lvl.

[yarpen]

Icen, you have a lot of good ideas!

 

Also, about fighter revisions - what do you think about profinency rate? I think that fighter should have them more often than f.e. paladin or ranger (who are also trying to understand their stuff as magic, hiding etc.). Fighter's main advantage is full access to equipment and grand mastery. I think that when f.e. in city militia, fighter learns how to use more weapons - even if he have grandmastery only in spear.

 

Thanks to that he can be treated as more universal (can specialize in far more weapon types - which when using Item Revision is very important) when you spent these points at variety of weapons, or faster learner when you want to achieve grandmastery as fast as it's possible.

[Demivrgvs]

BTW how about turning kensai into NWN's weapon master? To avoid the 10 kits GUI's limitation PC is given a one-time ability which will let them to select their weapon of choice and then assign a 'real' kit.

 

Sadly, #183 seems to be not working, so it would take to macropatch every weapon instead.

 

As for the kit's parameters themselves, I'm thinking about

 

1) bonuses to hit, damage, speed and critical chance (too bad there's no changeable critical multiplier in IE) with the weapon of choice

2) penalties to hit and damage with other weapons

3) no armor or proficiency restrictions

 

Obviously, hit/dam bonuses should be lowered down alot to balance it out, say 1/6lvl.

Having the 'weapon of choice' feature would be cool, but I was going for the easier way right now. I don't like instead to replace the Kensai with a character who can wear armors, as it's quite a unique and cool feature imo to have a fighter class who fights completely unamromred, isn't it?

 

Icen, you have a lot of good ideas!

Indeed he has... Regarding the 'set apr' feature though I must say I'm not sure it would be really implementable, except perhaps with a value of 5 (because of the cap). Anyway it seems we all agree, Berserker will have precise and devastating blows, Barbarian unaccurate but quick and brutal blows.

 

Also, about fighter revisions - what do you think about profinency rate? I think that fighter should have them more often than f.e. paladin or ranger (who are also trying to understand their stuff as magic, hiding etc.). Fighter's main advantage is full access to equipment and grand mastery. I think that when f.e. in city militia, fighter learns how to use more weapons - even if he have grandmastery only in spear.

 

Thanks to that he can be treated as more universal (can specialize in far more weapon types - which when using Item Revision is very important) when you spent these points at variety of weapons, or faster learner when you want to achieve grandmastery as fast as it's possible.

I agree, what do you think of my suggestion of having True Fighter become proficient in any weapon at 9th level and specialized in any weapon at 18th?

 

P.S I'm currently working on Berserker's Enrage (I've discovered it also lacked a few immunities to animations), does anyone remember what aVENGER did to make the "enraging" uninterruptable?

[aVENGER_(RR)]

does anyone remember what aVENGER did to make the "enraging" uninterruptable?

 

In aTweaks, I reduce its casting time to 0 and flag the ability as non-magical in order to prevent dead magic and wild magic zones from affecting it. Here's the relevant code:

 

///////////////////////////////////////
// Instant casting for warrior innates
///////////////////////////////////////

BEGIN @201 DESIGNATED 201 // Instant casting for warrior innates
GROUP @2 // Gameplay tweaks

// This tweak reduces the casting time of warrior innate abilities to 0
// It also flags these abilities as non-magical which prevents Wild Magic and Dead Magic zones from affecting them

COPY_EXISTING ~spin117.spl~ ~override~ // Minsc Berserk
		  ~spcl144.spl~ ~override~ // Kensai Kai
		  ~spcl152.spl~ ~override~ // Barbarian Rage
		  ~spcl211.spl~ ~override~ // Paladin Lay On Hands
		  ~spcl321.spl~ ~override~ // Berserker Enrage
		 ~spcl321d.spl~ ~override~ // Berserker Enrage secondary effect (becoming winded)
		  ~spcl815.spl~ ~override~ // Monk Lay On Hands
 READ_LONG  0x64 "abil_off"
 READ_SHORT 0x68 "abil_num"
READ_BYTE  0x19 "flags"
  PATCH_IF (("%flags%" BAND 0b01000000) != 0b01000000) BEGIN // only patch if the "simplified duration" flag is unchecked
  WRITE_BYTE 0x19 ("%flags%" BOR 0b01000000) // add the "simplified duration" flag (this actually marks the ability as non-magical)
  END
FOR ("index" = 0; "%index%" < "%abil_num%"; "index" = ("%index%" + 1)) BEGIN  // cycle through abilities
  WRITE_SHORT ("%abil_off%" + 0x12 + ("%index%" * 0x28)) 0					// set casting time to 0
 END
BUT_ONLY_IF_IT_CHANGES

[Demivrgvs]

Thanks aVENGER!

 

Well, here's what I've done to Berserker's Enrage in my install, let me know if I forgot something and feel free to discuss it.

 

* +1 to hit, +3 to damage (instead of +2/+2)

* removed immunity from level drain and imprisonment (grants immunity to all mind affecting spells)

* if the Berserker is invisible while enraging, the invisibility is instantly broken

* Berserkers cannot cast spells, cannot turn undead, cannot use quick items, cannot hide in shadows or use thieving skills while enraged

* casting time reduced to 0, attempts to enrage cannot be disrupted, Wild Magic or Dead Magic zones don't interfere anymore (as per aTweaks)

* lasts 10 rounds instead of 5, followed by 5 rounds of fatigue (-2 to fit/damage/AC) during which th berserker cannot enrage again

 

I'd say the "big" work has been done, refining values like hit/damage/AC and the like is extremely easy and quick to do.

 

I'm going to start tweaking Barbarian Rage.

[Salk]

So... ]Are you sure that barbarians should have dualclass possibilities?

I suppose you are trying to say "are you sure that barbarians shouldn't have dualclass possibilities?", am I wrong? It was a vanilla hindrance, and frankly I'm not too biased on this matter. It partially makes sense, as I don't see a barbarian suddenly turning into a thief or a mage, but this probably is very subjective.

 

Personally I think Barbarians should remain single class only.

[Demivrgvs]

Personally I think Barbarians should remain single class only.

It seems most of us agree on this matter.

 

While this we'll allow us to make Barbarian Rage as scalable as we like I may have a simple idea to make single class Berserker a little more appealing than the usual Berserker 9/dualled to thief, mage or cleric...at 18th level Berserker become immune to the fatigue effect which follows the Enrage (just like we're probably going to do with the Barbarian). The drawback imo is that I quite like to have the fatigue effect.

 

Anyway this goes into a more wide concept: assigning unique class abilities at later levels should be a cool way to "nerf" the almost ever more appealing dual-class combos.

[Jarno Mikkola]

Well, as there are a lot of talk about Kits etc. Has anyone made a Cantrip&Orisons mod for BG2, a mod that adds lesser level (0) spells to casters like this one does for IwD?