Commentary on alignment changes: LG

[Smoketest]

Agreed on all but the last clause. Evil was no more cut-and-dried in medieval times than it is today. And while in the world of D&D it's entirely possible to segregate them, doing so would not only be counter-productive (not all evil people are bad for society), but far too much effort. There's also the argument that while it's supposed to be in medieval times, D&D actually represents current mores, like equality of races, sexes, orientations, etc. that did not exist in medieval times and thus cannot truly be compared to it.

I for one think the world would be a better place without evil people, but since everyone and their dog has a different view of what is evil and what is good, your response doesn't surprise me. It's also why I disagree with the alignment system in D&D, but that's not going to change ever, so I deal.

[Kulyok]

I see obvious reason in changing Lathander priests and Paladins, and many others.

 

However, I do not see reasons for change in the following cases:

 

chgood04.cre = Elven Warrior (1st Pocket Plane Challenge for evil <CHARNAME>) - Lawful Neutral

chgood05.cre = Elven Warrior (1st Pocket Plane Challenge for evil <CHARNAME>) - Lawful Neutral

chgood07.cre = Duke Eltan (1st Pocket Plane Challenge for evil <CHARNAME>) - Lawful Neutral

 

- I think that neutral is acceptable for an average elf, and Duke Eltan's goodness is not obvious to me. Are all other characters in this particular challenge good? If so, yes, I agree, this change is a fix. If not, I do not see any reason for change.

 

cutbalth.cre = Balthazar (kidnaps Melissan in a cutscene)- Lawful Neutral

 

- A kidnapper and a murderer, who made rather unpleasant pacts with openly evil characters, who made his own town desolate, a Lawful Good character? I do not believe there is reason enough.

 

garkid01.cre = Iltha (Garren Windspear's daughter) - Neutral

garkid02.cre = Taar (Garren Windspear's son) - Neutral

 

- I think too little is known about these characters. Besides, they flirt with the paladin character even if there's a romance interest present, which is not a LG behavior to me.

 

hdragsil.cre = Dragon (Tear guardian in a hell trial) - Chaotic Evil

 

- This one is a Dragon(and dragons in game are mostly evil) in Hell. I think Chotic Evil is acceptable.

 

sarmag01.cre = Errard (mage on walls in Saradush, involved in the Mateo desertion quest) - Lawful Evil

 

- A rather rude person, and his motivation for defending Saradush can easily be selfish. Why not LE?

 

suelle.cre = Ellesime (tree of life Ellesime) - Neutral

suelle2.cre = Ellesime (post SoA finale Ellesime) - Neutral

suelleap.cre = Ellesime (another tree of life Ellesime) - Neutral

 

- I think Ellesime's character and alignment has potential for *huge* controversy, so I believe it is best to leave her alignment the way it is in the game. I personally think Neutral suits her.

 

 

If there are additional reasons, and I simply do not see them, I would like to know what they are. If there aren't any, I would ask to reverse these characters' alignment to their original values.

[NiGHTMARE]

- I think that neutral is acceptable for an average elf

 

For an average human, yes. However, the average surface elf is CG.

 

and Duke Eltan's goodness is not obvious to me.

 

I agree with this one, especially as in BG1 Duke Eltan is Lawful Neutral.

 

garkid01.cre = Iltha (Garren Windspear's daughter) - Neutral

garkid02.cre = Taar (Garren Windspear's son) - Neutral

 

- I think too little is known about these characters. Besides, they flirt with the paladin character even if there's a romance interest present, which is not a LG behavior to me.

 

There is also no evidence that Garren's kids are psychic, which they would need to be in order to tell that a romance interest is present. What is known is that they idolize the concept of paladinhood which, as I mentioned earlier, would be highly unlikely if they were anything other than LG. If they were NG or CG, they would far more likely be interested in rangers, especially since they live in the middle of the wilderness. If they were any Neutral alignment, they certainly wouldn't particularly care about paladins.

 

hdragsil.cre = Dragon (Tear guardian in a hell trial) - Chaotic Evil

 

- This one is a Dragon(and dragons in game are mostly evil) in Hell. I think Chotic Evil is acceptable.

 

Would a CE dragon simply hand over an item if it were asked to? Short answer: no. Also, the dragon being in Hell isn't really a good argument for it being CE, because Hell in D&D is actually Lawful Evil.

[Kulyok]

Agreed about Garren's kids.

 

I don't know about the dragon giving the item: I mean, these demons walking around hell give the player the cloak and helpful hints, too. Not attacking him - bending to his will instead.

 

And as for Chaotic and Lawful - well, the Pocket Plane is the Layer of the Abyss, so... perhaps D&D changes are needed, perhaps not, but I would regard it as a tweak, to be honest. I am not sure there is need for interference.

[CamDawg]

chgood04.cre = Elven Warrior (1st Pocket Plane Challenge for evil ) - Lawful Neutral

chgood05.cre = Elven Warrior (1st Pocket Plane Challenge for evil ) - Lawful Neutral

chgood07.cre = Duke Eltan (1st Pocket Plane Challenge for evil ) - Lawful Neutral

These are from the Pocket Plane challenge where you get flooded by waves of enemies. All of the chevil(1-10) are evil; but not all of the chgood(1-10) are.

 

cutbalth.cre = Balthazar (kidnaps Melissan in a cutscene)- Lawful Neutral

 

- A kidnapper and a murderer, who made rather unpleasant pacts with openly evil characters, who made his own town desolate, a Lawful Good character? I do not believe there is reason enough.

Does David Gaider count for developer intent?

 

hdragsil.cre = Dragon (Tear guardian in a hell trial) - Chaotic Evil

 

- This one is a Dragon(and dragons in game are mostly evil) in Hell. I think Chotic Evil is acceptable.

If the dragon were evil, why would good and neutral characters fall to evil alignments for killing it? I can see the argument being made that it's because the player only attacks the dragon out of pride (which is why it's an evil act), but keep in mind that the paladins over at the NORH consider it evil to allow Firkraag, an evil dragon, to live, i.e. not acting against an evil dragon is itself an evil act. The game's internal logic fails here if this dragon is evil. You can see that they originally wanted to make this a silver dragon--I'm guessing they felt it made the test a little too obvious and it was hastily converted to black.

[Nythrun]

suelle.cre = Ellesime (tree of life Ellesime) - Neutral

suelle2.cre = Ellesime (post SoA finale Ellesime) - Neutral

suelleap.cre = Ellesime (another tree of life Ellesime) - Neutral

 

- I think Ellesime's character and alignment has potential for *huge* controversy, so I believe it is best to leave her alignment the way it is in the game. I personally think Neutral suits her.

 

I tend to agree that Ellesime is another tough one - but there's a fourth Ellesime creature in the game, used in the first Pocket Plane challenge for evil characters, and that one is Lawful Good - which is probably where the change came from.

 

Inconsistency may actually be intent, here.

[Smoketest]

From what I recall, metallic dragons in pnp aren't supposed to be evil; chromatic dragons are. If the game works right, the silver (metallic) dragon in the pride test is only present if you do not give in to pride, and he freely gives the tear to you as your reward. If you give in to pride, a black/red dragon (chromatic) is supposed to spawn instead, and will fight you to the death.

 

Every other D&D game I've played had good-aligned metallic dragons, usually gold and silver. The original Pool of Radiance had evil Tyranthraxus parading around in the guise of a gold dragon, but that was a disguise not the real thing.

[Gorilym]

suelle.cre = Ellesime (tree of life Ellesime) - Neutral

suelle2.cre = Ellesime (post SoA finale Ellesime) - Neutral

suelleap.cre = Ellesime (another tree of life Ellesime) - Neutral

 

- I think Ellesime's character and alignment has potential for *huge* controversy, so I believe it is best to leave her alignment the way it is in the game. I personally think Neutral suits her.

 

Even the flawed BGII manual lists Ellesime as Lawful Good. If that doesn't indicate developer intent, what does?

 

As for the evil Pocket Plane challenge, Duke Eltan should probably stay Lawful Neutral. I think it's likely that those elves are LN only because they "accompany" him, so changing them to "race default" seems appropriate to me (rather than changing them to LG).

[Felinoid]

From what I recall, metallic dragons in pnp aren't supposed to be evil; chromatic dragons are. If the game works right, the silver (metallic) dragon in the pride test is only present if you do not give in to pride, and he freely gives the tear to you as your reward. If you give in to pride, a black/red dragon (chromatic) is supposed to spawn instead, and will fight you to the death.

 

Every other D&D game I've played had good-aligned metallic dragons, usually gold and silver. The original Pool of Radiance had evil Tyranthraxus parading around in the guise of a gold dragon, but that was a disguise not the real thing.

Quite. And from the MM, a silver dragon's (note: hdragSIL.cre) alignment is LG.

 

 

suelle.cre = Ellesime (tree of life Ellesime) - Neutral

suelle2.cre = Ellesime (post SoA finale Ellesime) - Neutral

suelleap.cre = Ellesime (another tree of life Ellesime) - Neutral

 

- I think Ellesime's character and alignment has potential for *huge* controversy, so I believe it is best to leave her alignment the way it is in the game. I personally think Neutral suits her.

 

Even the flawed BGII manual lists Ellesime as Lawful Good. If that doesn't indicate developer intent, what does?

This is one of the places where I think the size of the fix overrides the likelyhood of getting it wrong. Particularly with the manual evidence.

 

As for the evil Pocket Plane challenge, Duke Eltan should probably stay Lawful Neutral. I think it's likely that those elves are LN only because they "accompany" him, so changing them to "race default" seems appropriate to me (rather than changing them to LG).

Hmm. I'm a little torn on this. The CRE having "good" right in the name, Eltan seeming good enough when you meet him (though that's more of a feel than any evidence), but then being LN in BG1... I'd have to say leave him LN based on the evidence, even though it doesn't feel quite right personally.

 

And the elves are a good point. With the number of them spawning, with no dialogue and attacking an evil player, they really ought to hit the default CG. Or are FR elves different?

[CamDawg]

Quite. And from the MM, a silver dragon's (note: hdragSIL.cre) alignment is LG.

Despite the file name, it is a black dragon (black dragon avatar, black dragon breath weapon)--hence my note above.

[CamDawg]

Even the flawed BGII manual lists Ellesime as Lawful Good. If that doesn't indicate developer intent, what does?

It also lists Edwin as Chaotic Evil. While I happen to agree it's right in the case of Ellisime, please don't rely on the manual for anything.

[Gorilym]

It also lists Edwin as Chaotic Evil. While I happen to agree it's right in the case of Ellisime, please don't rely on the manual for anything.

 

Hey, I did say "even the flawed"... Just because the manual is wrong about a lot of things doesn't mean that it's wrong about everything.

[Kulyok]

Thank you, agreed on Ellesime, Balth, elves. It's just me, but I would add this argumentation(manual, Gaider, mentioning that ALL pocket plane challenge creatures are good) to the initial post.

 

I do think a dragon is a subject of Pride challenge, and the only question here is whether the player acts out of pride or not - so I cannot see _enough_ reason for making it lawful good. It is Pride challenge - it doesn't matter in the long run if there's an evil lich or a noble hero of old on the other side. The question is whether the player chooses negotiating other fight, humility over arrogance.

[Nythrun]

The dragon creatures are a particularly clear case of copy and paste - but in the case of hdragsil and hdragred, they appear to have been copied from Thaxll'ssillya'': same statistic spread (25, 14, 16, 15, 15, 13), same six spells known, same hit points (160), same THAC0 (-3)...all that really changes is the number of attacks and experience value.

 

Or in this case, rather than a hasty change from a copy and paste from Adalon or Firkraag, they look more like an incompletely updated copy and paste from Thaxll'ss'i''l"ly""""a.*/.$

 

It's also worth noting that you can just walk up to the hell dragons and kill them without taking the evil path, so it's only an unforgivable act of hubris to smite an evil dragon if you've listened to its boasting first. It's difficult to see developer intent in that

[Kulyok]

It's also worth noting that you can just walk up to the hell dragons and kill them without taking the evil path

 

I think it is a bug, since in any test, except Sarevok's, the player should not be able to proceed until he talks to a respective demon.