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SR v4 (detailed list of changes - ongoing update)


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#16 Ardanis

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Posted 04 August 2011 - 05:06 AM

Friends

I think the only way to make this truly useful (and work as the description states) is to re-work every encounter to offer a non-violent solution. Way out of the question, surely.

In plans for Quest Revisions.

Until then, 8 hours as suggested. I'm actually quite content with sacrificing one spell slot for better prices.

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#17 Demivrgvs

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Posted 04 August 2011 - 05:35 AM

I won't quote everything as I usually do to avoid a huge wall of text.

Blindness
Its -10 penalty to thac0 is hardcoded, and could be changed to -4 AC/thac0 with ToBEx if we wish, but is the latter really better? :D

I know the problems the AI has with blindness, but I'm not sure increasing visual range is a good option (though doable if we implement the spell without the relative opcode but using a custom sec type). I'll discuss this a little with Ardanis perhaps and let you know my conclusion.

Charm Person
Ideally I'd like to make all charm effects work as they should, but I doubt it's possible unless ToBEx alters the hardcoded opcodes themselves. The 1st lvl version of this spell should not let players control the target, while Dire Charm should cause the target to go berserk, and only Domination should let you control the target and allow him to cast spells. The way Charm Person works for players within BG makes it even more powerful than the 1st lvl Blindness most players (like me) consider OP.

That being said, I don't know how to implement any of that in a flawless way (e.g. adding a berserk opcode to Dire Charm, while making it not work on creatures supposedly immune to it via EFFs seems almost perfect, but it doesn't take into account "special targets" such as a human innately immune to charm).

Chill Touch
I'm thinking about making it bypass PfMW-like protections, but not restoring its vanilla absurd "non-magical weapon" flag, else the attack wouldn't be able to hit really too many BG2 creatures.

I think I'll also restore its anti-undead aspect, though I cannot use vanilla's confusion for obvious reasons (undead creatures are immune to it!) and thus we need to opt for something like a daze/hold effect.

Last but not least I'll try to study a little if the spell need to improve with caster lvl. Otoh, I really cannot make it work as Polytope suggests as adding "cold damage + thac0/STR drain + anti-undead effect" on top of any weapon the mage (or fighter-mage) may posses doesn't fit the concept and is kinda OP imo.

Color Spray
I think replacing stun with daze has a consensus.

Friends
I don't think adding an AC bonus here is such a good idea. Is your opponent not fighting well because you're really too much charismatic? :)

@Dakk, I was gentle. :D

Shocking Grasp
I'm pretty much convinced that making it work as per vanilla Vampiric Touch is the way to go. It won't require hit roll, and it won't count as a +x enchanted weapon anymore making it work against any creature and PfMW-like protections as it should.

P.S I don't know why some players got the impression I was suggesting to make it a ranged effect, I surely don't want considering its name.

Edited by Demivrgvs, 04 August 2011 - 06:44 AM.


#18 Lawlight

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Posted 04 August 2011 - 06:44 AM

Hi all,
this is my first post here, normally I'am more the reader in the background. :)

True Strike
I like the SR2 Version and use it frequently for bard oder mage multiclass characters. The only thing I would like to see here is an increased effect duration, but i can live with 1 round.

Chill Touch
1) Bypassing PfMW-like protection via cold damage sounds good and could help to interrupt spellcasters, so there is at least a use for multiclass mages and bards (and even single class mages). If you find a way to implement this without removing the "+1 enchantment to determine what it can hit" part, its cool.

2) If you really want to add an anti-undead aspect I would say go for the hold thing, because it fits to the whole anti melee / STR drain thing (aka keeping melees on distance or at least weaken them which came in my mind when thinking about a chilling touch). STR drain should stay at 1.

1) & 2) together should make it at least a little bit more interesting for all kind of arcane power users.

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#19 Demivrgvs

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Posted 04 August 2011 - 07:28 AM

Hi all,
this is my first post here, normally I'am more the reader in the background. ???

You're welcome! :D

Chill Touch

Bypassing PfMW-like protection via cold damage sounds good and could help to interrupt spellcasters, so there is at least a use for multiclass mages and bards (and even single class mages). If you find a way to implement this without removing the "+1 enchantment to determine what it can hit" part, its cool.

No, that's not possible. Afaik the only two ways to implement this are:
a) flag Chill Touch as magical while keeping vanilla's +0 enchantment
b) flag Chill Touch as magical while assigning it high enchantment lvl (e.g. +7)

a) Is not an option imo unless we want this spell to not work against tons of cretures including pretty much all undead ones.
b) That would mean making it affect ALL creatures. This seems the lesser of the two evils.

P.S Both solutions also require to tweak PfMW to make it work as Mantle spells does (aka "immunity to enchantment lvl" instead of "immunity to every weapon with the 'magical' flag")


2nd lvl arcane spells
I'll add more stuff to the discussion as only a bunch of 1st lvl spells is not enough for me! :)

Deafness
This is the worst 2nd lvl spell imo (Detect Alignment cannot even be called a spell imo), and I cannot tolerate that it's lower lvl cousin, Blindness, is ridiculously more powerful than this. Any suggestion? Adding small AoE (at least it would bypass II)? :D

There's a rare PW:Deafness in PnP, but we already have a PW at this lvl, and I don't think casting time 1 would suddenly make it uber-great.

Detect Invisibility
This spell won't dispell Improved Invisibility effects anymore (making II's +4 AC much more reliable and effective), but it will reveal invisibile creatures (those under II too) and it will allow to target them normally (aka the reason we don't need spell removals to have that ugly AoE to bypass II). It will also revela creatures using the new Etherealness spell.

Knock
It will be renamed Battering Ram, and its school changed from Transmutation to Invocation.

Ghoul Touch
Again, touch spells are my worst nightmare...but this time around I think this one is really understimated. It pratically is a Celestial Fury on stereoids if it wasn't for its low enchantment lvl.

Ray of Enfeeblement
Is it fine as it is? :O

Stinking Cloud & Web
Am I the only one who think their AD&D school assignment makes no sense? They should be conjurations as per 3E imo.

For balance reasons I'd make multiple Web effects not stack, but I know there isn't a consensus on this.

Edited by Demivrgvs, 04 August 2011 - 07:32 AM.


#20 Shaitan

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Posted 04 August 2011 - 08:16 AM

Deafness
This is the worst 2nd lvl spell imo (Detect Alignment cannot even be called a spell imo), and I cannot tolerate that it's lower lvl cousin, Blindness, is ridiculously more powerful than this. Any suggestion? Adding small AoE (at least it would bypass II)? :)

A aoe would indeed help, why souldn't it bypass II? Perhaps that would mend Deafness a bit, but still I'm not sure I'd use it. At least in BG2.

Detect Invisibility
This spell won't dispell Improved Invisibility effects anymore (making II's +4 AC much more reliable and effective), but it will reveal invisibile creatures (those under II too) and it will allow to target them normally (aka the reason we don't need spell removals to have that ugly AoE to bypass II). It will also revela creatures using the new Etherealness spell.

Very nice.

Ghoul Touch
Again, touch spells are my worst nightmare...but this time around I think this one is really understimated. It pratically is a Celestial Fury on stereoids if it wasn't for its low enchantment lvl.

Perhaps I should use it then :D

Ray of Enfeeblement
Is it fine as it is? :D

I love this spell as it is. And I like SCS using it too. It's one of my favs at this level.

Stinking Cloud & Web
Am I the only one who think their AD&D school assignment makes no sense? They should be conjurations as per 3E imo.

For balance reasons I'd make multiple Web effects not stack, but I know there isn't a consensus on this.

Agree on both accounts.
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#21 Shaitan

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Posted 04 August 2011 - 08:19 AM

A bit off topic:

Do you and Ardanis officially have plans for a Quest Revision at some point in the future?

Cheers
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#22 Kalindor

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Posted 04 August 2011 - 01:16 PM

The idea of Deafness penetrating Improved Invisibility is interesting. You could also make it into Blindness/Deafness and have it inflict blind and deaf penalties with a -1 saving throw over the level 1 spell Blindness.

#23 Pacek

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Posted 04 August 2011 - 07:43 PM

Some more thoughts:
Blindness:
Is it possible/would you consider only affecting visual range for the player? This way AI can deal much better, pretty much as the player would.
Deafness
Might be interesting to add some beneficial effects, and turn it into a utility spell. I'm thinking immunity to Command, Bard Song, Chant, greater command, Power word spells etc, Siren's charm. Things you really need to hear for them to affect you. Also vocalize should cancel the spell failure part. But I don't get why it should penetrate II: what's the logic?

Failing that, how about swapping these two around?

On Spell schools:
Blindness: Necromancy > Illusion
Mage Armour: Conj. > Abjuration
Luck: Ench > Abjuration/Divination
Ray of Enf.: Ench > Necromancy
Stinking Cloud and Web should indeed be conjuration

Edited by Pacek, 04 August 2011 - 08:02 PM.


#24 Demivrgvs

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Posted 05 August 2011 - 03:02 AM

Blindness

Is it possible/would you consider only affecting visual range for the player? This way AI can deal much better, pretty much as the player would.

Mmm, leaving aside hardcoded issues (I think this cannot be done) the end result would be pretty much strange, as you'd have a blinded character simply suffer -10 thac0 and still able to do pretty much everything else normally, like casting a spell at a target 30 feet away from him. :)

Deafness

The idea of Deafness penetrating Improved Invisibility is interesting. You could also make it into Blindness/Deafness and have it inflict blind and deaf penalties with a -1 saving throw over the level 1 spell Blindness.

Combining the two of them would create a very powerful 2nd lvl spell, which would make 1st lvl Blindness completely redundant...you know I don't like that sort of things.

Might be interesting to add some beneficial effects, and turn it into a utility spell. I'm thinking immunity to Command, Bard Song, Chant, greater command, Power word spells etc, Siren's charm. Things you really need to hear for them to affect you.

Yeah, I do thought about this, and I may actually work on it if we assign a custom sec type to Deafness, but that isn't going to make this spell more appealing anyway because it's not like you'd want your caster to deafen himself (not to mention there's a save to avoid it). You could actually want your fighters to be deafened, but it's not something I would provide incentives to.

Also vocalize should cancel the spell failure part.

:D Not sure about this...

But I don't get why it should penetrate II: what's the logic?

Because without an AoE this spell is completely useless (just compare it to Silence or its lower lvl cousin Blindness), and assigning it an AoE makes it bypass II.

Failing that, how about swapping these two around?

As it stands now I'd probably not use Deafness even as a 1st lvl spell, would you?

Now, it's my turn. :D Something a little more radical which would hugely improve Deafness without removing its core concept would be to "replace" it with a 2nd lvl implementation of another PnP spell, Sonic Blast. We also thought about the much more common Sound Burst, but it's bard-only in PnP, and it stuns instead of deafening. Similarly another Spell Compedium's spell was Thunderclap, a 3rd lvl spell which both stuns and deafen.

Long story short, the daring suggestion is to turn Deafness into an Evocation spell, Sonic Blast, with a small 10-15 feet radius AoE, making it inflict a small amount of damage (4d4?) and forcing targets a save to avoid being deafened. What do you think?

Spell schools

Blindness: Necromancy > Illusion
Mage Armour: Conj. > Abjuration
Luck: Ench > Abjuration/Divination
Ray of Enf.: Ench > Necromancy
Stinking Cloud and Web should indeed be conjuration

Blindness: what would be the benefit of making it an illusion? The only thing it would accomplish imo is making the whole "Cure Disease removes blindness" thing quite absurd, as an healing spell would dispel an illusion.

Mage Armor: this has always been a trademark of conjurers and I think it should stay. Otoh, I could probably vote to make Shield an abjuration spell as per 3E.

Luck: I really don't know which school would fit it best, but I wouldn't change a pre-existing school unless I have a very good reason to do so.

Ray of Enfeeblement: good point, necromancy does fit a STR draining spell much more than enchantment school (another point for 3E).

Stinking Cloud & Web: yeah, I really cannot understand how the hell these could be considered evocations back then.

Edited by Demivrgvs, 05 August 2011 - 03:08 AM.


#25 Dakk

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Posted 05 August 2011 - 04:03 AM

Now, it's my turn. :) Something a little more radical which would hugely improve Deafness without removing its core concept would be to "replace" it with a 2nd lvl implementation of another PnP spell, Sonic Blast. We also thought about the much more common Sound Burst, but it's bard-only in PnP, and it stuns instead of deafening. Similarly another Spell Compedium's spell was Thunderclap, a 3rd lvl spell which both stuns and deafen.

Long story short, the daring suggestion is to turn Deafness into an Evocation spell, Sonic Blast, with a small 10-15 feet radius AoE, making it inflict a small amount of damage (4d4?) and forcing targets a save to avoid being deafened. What do you think?

Absolutely. As you said, no one would use Deafness even if it were a 1st lvl spell.

#26 Pacek

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Posted 05 August 2011 - 05:17 PM

Blindness

Is it possible/would you consider only affecting visual range for the player? This way AI can deal much better, pretty much as the player would.

Mmm, leaving aside hardcoded issues (I think this cannot be done) the end result would be pretty much strange, as you'd have a blinded character simply suffer -10 thac0 and still able to do pretty much everything else normally, like casting a spell at a target 30 feet away from him. :)

You're right.


Also vocalize should cancel the spell failure part.

:D Not sure about this...

Because despite the spell's name, it actually removes the vocal component from casting. Its the vocals that a deaf caster has trouble with.

turn Deafness into an Evocation spell, Sonic Blast, with a small 10-15 feet radius AoE, making it inflict a small amount of damage (4d4?) and forcing targets a save to avoid being deafened. What do you think?

I think that is an awesome idea

Blindness: what would be the benefit of making it an illusion? The only thing it would accomplish imo is making the whole "Cure Disease removes blindness" thing quite absurd, as an healing spell would dispel an illusion.

Totally

Mage Armor: this has always been a trademark of conjurers and I think it should stay. Otoh, I could probably vote to make Shield an abjuration spell as per 3E.

Its just that a "magical field of force" doesn't sound very conjure-y. A "Magical suit of armour" maybe... Shield>Abjuration yes. Then abjurers would have a decent 1st level spell, usable at level 1.

Luck: I really don't know which school would fit it best, but I wouldn't change a pre-existing school unless I have a very good reason to do so.

I've changed my mind and think enchantment really is best

Ray of Enfeeblement: good point, necromancy does fit a STR draining spell much more than enchantment school (another point for 3E).

Yay

Edited by Pacek, 05 August 2011 - 05:21 PM.


#27 amanasleep

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Posted 05 August 2011 - 08:47 PM

Now, it's my turn. :) Something a little more radical which would hugely improve Deafness without removing its core concept would be to "replace" it with a 2nd lvl implementation of another PnP spell, Sonic Blast. We also thought about the much more common Sound Burst, but it's bard-only in PnP, and it stuns instead of deafening. Similarly another Spell Compedium's spell was Thunderclap, a 3rd lvl spell which both stuns and deafen.


Great idea, but I would prefer Shout. Has a much more classic PnP feel to me.

#28 Dakk

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Posted 06 August 2011 - 04:21 AM

Now, it's my turn. :) Something a little more radical which would hugely improve Deafness without removing its core concept would be to "replace" it with a 2nd lvl implementation of another PnP spell, Sonic Blast. We also thought about the much more common Sound Burst, but it's bard-only in PnP, and it stuns instead of deafening. Similarly another Spell Compedium's spell was Thunderclap, a 3rd lvl spell which both stuns and deafen.


Great idea, but I would prefer Shout. Has a much more classic PnP feel to me.

Shout is indeed a real classic!

#29 yarpen

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Posted 06 August 2011 - 07:20 AM

Basing on it's description:

Chaotic commands renders a creature immune to magical commands. Taunt, forget, suggestion, domination, geas, demand, succor, command, enthrall, quest, exaction, and other spells that place a direct verbal command upon a single individual automatically fail.
In addition, anyone casting one of these spells on a creature protected by chaotic commands must save vs. spell. Failure means that the caster must obey his own magic; the spell's effect has backfired on the caster.

Chaotic Command protects only against compulsive spells. Things which say to you what to do. Command: Die, Hold Person, Charm Person, Dominate. It doesn't protect you from randomization spells like Chaos or Feeblemind.

On the other hand Mind Blank creates shield which makes your thoughts unavailable to anyone - so it grants full protection against mind-affecting spells.

About high-level Divination spell which makes you "prepared for everything" - what about something like: first time when you'll encounter opponent (hostile creature) you get free round of time stop? That makes you really prepared for everything. That'd also justify the fact that SCS mages have their defences up (and even this funny tick when they do so). I'd say level 6 or 7 would be fine for effect like this.

#30 Demivrgvs

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Posted 07 August 2011 - 02:00 AM

Deafness

Now, it's my turn. :D Something a little more radical which would hugely improve Deafness without removing its core concept would be to "replace" it with a 2nd lvl implementation of another PnP spell, Sonic Blast. We also thought about the much more common Sound Burst, but it's bard-only in PnP, and it stuns instead of deafening. Similarly another Spell Compedium's spell was Thunderclap, a 3rd lvl spell which both stuns and deafen.

Great idea, but I would prefer Shout. Has a much more classic PnP feel to me.

Shout is indeed a real classic!

Indeed, the end result I was suggesting was clearly inspired by Shout, and we actually found those other spells (Sonic Blast, Thunderclap) by looking for similar spells with a lower lvl. That being said, if most of you prefer to use that name despite the two lvl difference (Shout is a 4th lvl spell) it could be fine with me, but while PnP Shout is a cone spell, I only have thr animation for a Sound Burst-like circular AoE spell. :)

Chaotic Commands vs Mind Blank

Basing on it's description... Chaotic Command protects only against compulsive spells. Things which say to you what to do. Command: Die, Hold Person, Charm Person, Dominate. It doesn't protect you from randomization spells like Chaos or Feeblemind.

On the other hand Mind Blank creates shield which makes your thoughts unavailable to anyone - so it grants full protection against mind-affecting spells.

Keep in mind CC has to remain pretty much unchanged to not mess up the AI (aka immunity to confusion and feeblemind will stay). Otoh, Mind Blank can offer even more protections, such as granting immunity to ALL enchantments including things such as Doom, Bad Chant, Malison, Crushing Despair, and so on.

New Divination spell

About high-level Divination spell which makes you "prepared for everything" - what about something like: first time when you'll encounter opponent (hostile creature) you get free round of time stop? That makes you really prepared for everything. That'd also justify the fact that SCS mages have their defences up (and even this funny tick when they do so). I'd say level 6 or 7 would be fine for effect like this.

Ehm...this is really too much non-pnp imo. :D



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