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SR v4 (detailed list of changes - ongoing update)


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#31 Demivrgvs

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Posted 08 August 2011 - 09:21 AM

I've updated the first post with what I believe is pretty much established for 1st and 2nd lvl spells. Now, 3rd lvl spells...

Dire Charm
As previously mentioned, I'd like to make it work as per PnP, making the target go berserk, but I have to find out if this could mess with the AI.

Fireball
What do you think of reducing its AoE from 30 to 20 feet as per PnP? Would that be an advantage (more controllable in case the caster is struggling to not hit his allies) or not (in case there's no vulnerable ally to worry about)?

Flame Arrow
Am I the only one who think this spell starts really too much weak (at 5th lvl it only does 4d6 fire dmg to 1 target) and ends up slightly too powerful (a 3rd lvl spell inflicting 20d6 dmg?)? What about having the caster get more arrows sooner (e.g. 1 arrow every other 2 lvls above 1st, or 1 arrow every 3 lvls?) and then cap a little bit earlier (9-12th lvl)?

Ghost Armor
I'd personally rename it Phantom Armor (its PnP name) but it's not a big deal. Is this spell appealing? Does it need a small boost? :)

Haste & Slow
Using custom secondary types we'll finally be able to make these two spells cancel each other correctly. I'm also thinking about a possible solution to make Slow really halve apr to all those classes with only 1 attack (aka all non-warriors), as the opcode itself doesn't reduce their apr to 1/2.

Invisibility Sphere
Following players suggestions I'd make this a short lasting (max 1 turn) but quick casting (speed 1) spell.

Lightning Bolt
Assuming I cannot make it work as per PnP, this spell has to be THE "1 target damaging spell" of choice on this lvl. Is the current dmg output and its progression fine? Does Flame Arrow still outshine it? :D Any other suggestion?

Non-detection
Non-Detection currently doesn't grant complete protection from Detect Illusion, Oracle and True Seeing, it does only in case the protected creature is invisible via thief hide in shadow ability, but not via invisibility spells. Using a custom secondary type we should be able to make it work more similarly to PnP (e.g. it will also protect other illusionary protections such as Blur or Mirror Image). When affected by DI/Oracle/True Seeing the protected creature will be allowed to make a save, a successfull save means the divination fails, while a failed save means Non-detection is breached and DI/Oracle/True Seeing are able to detect the protected creature.

Protection from Missiles
Quite a few players reported this spell to be really too much powerful, especially within BG1. Should I nerf it by making it grant immunity only against non-magical missiles as per vanilla, but granting a huge AC bonus vs missiles?

It has also been suggested to make it scale with caster lvl, but doing that is kinda problematic (I have to create/add a bunch of pro files and patch all ammos and throwing weapons), especially if I also have to take into account mod-added items.

Skull Trap
Leaving aside that I'd really love it to work as per PnP (the skull is placed upon a conjured skeleton, and explodes when hit) but I can't do that, I'm simply thinking of making it not affect undead creatures (as per PnP) as it inflicts negative energy damage.

Edited by Demivrgvs, 08 August 2011 - 09:45 AM.


#32 aVENGER_(RR)

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Posted 08 August 2011 - 11:13 AM

Deafness
This spell will be completely reshaped. It will get a small non-friendly AoE (the AI NEVER uses it anyway)


RR's AI does use Deafness actually.

Therefore I'd prefer it is stays either party friendly or single-target, whichever is more convenient for you.

Edited by aVENGER_(RR), 08 August 2011 - 11:13 AM.


#33 polytope

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Posted 08 August 2011 - 07:30 PM

Flame Arrow
Am I the only one who think this spell starts really too much weak (at 5th lvl it only does 4d6 fire dmg to 1 target) and ends up slightly too powerful (a 3rd lvl spell inflicting 20d6 dmg?)? What about having the caster get more arrows sooner (e.g. 1 arrow every other 2 lvls above 1st, or 1 arrow every 3 lvls?) and then cap a little bit earlier (9-12th lvl)?

You could increase the missile fraction of damage (to distinguish from fireball), but for a creature hit by multiple flame arrows in a round allow a second saving throw for the fire portion. This would make FA a bit stronger against groups of creatures, but not overpowered against a single creature.

Ghost Armor
I'd personally rename it Phantom Armor (its PnP name) but it's not a big deal. Is this spell appealing? Does it need a small boost? :)

It's mostly useful for illusionists who cannot cast Spirit Armor, but I think it's fine as it is.

Non-detection
Non-Detection currently doesn't grant complete protection from Detect Illusion, Oracle and True Seeing, it does only in case the protected creature is invisible via thief hide in shadow ability, but not via invisibility spells. Using a custom secondary type we should be able to make it work more similarly to PnP (e.g. it will also protect other illusionary protections such as Blur or Mirror Image). When affected by DI/Oracle/True Seeing the protected creature will be allowed to make a save, a successfull save means the divination fails, while a failed save means Non-detection is breached and DI/Oracle/True Seeing are able to detect the protected creature.

The save penalty would need to be increased according to target's level, otherwise, this is a cheaper version of SI:Divination - a high level wizard with buffs could easily have a save vs spells of -6 or so.

Protection from Missiles
Quite a few players reported this spell to be really too much powerful, especially within BG1. Should I nerf it by making it grant immunity only against non-magical missiles as per vanilla, but granting a huge AC bonus vs missiles?

The 2nd ed version is actually mentioned as reducing missile damage by 1 pt per die (about 15%) even against magical missiles, which could be added.

The vanilla spell is actually reasonably powerful if used in the right combination. I.e. a mage with ProMW + ProNM + teleport field is very difficult to attack. The problem is not that ProNM is underpowered but that elemental arrows are too effective at interrupting mages - currently only the fire arrow allows a save against the elemental damage.

RR's AI does use Deafness actually.

Therefore I'd prefer it is stays either party friendly or single-target, whichever is more convenient for you.

For the same reason I'd vote for "Neutralize Poison" to be reverted to curing blindness - I think various AI scripts still try to do this.
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#34 Jarno Mikkola

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Posted 08 August 2011 - 11:47 PM

Fireball
What do you think of reducing its AoE from 30 to 20 feet as per PnP? Would that be an advantage (more controllable in case the caster is struggling to not hit his allies) or not (in case there's no vulnerable ally to worry about)?

I would say that you really shouldn't change the range of AoE.
And I would also say that as the IE feet is really not what the PnP feet is, I hardly think that it would be a good reference. Besides, do you really wish to change the explosion animation so much ?
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#35 Demivrgvs

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Posted 09 August 2011 - 04:27 PM

Deafness

This spell will be completely reshaped. It will get a small non-friendly AoE (the AI NEVER uses it anyway)

RR's AI does use Deafness actually.

Therefore I'd prefer it is stays either party friendly or single-target, whichever is more convenient for you.

Damn, we checked only vanilla and SCS AI...I hate you! :D May I ask why you're using such a terrible spell? Is it a must have? In theory I've no problem helping you out making it party friendly, it's just that Snowball Swarm was going to be party friendly too, and the latter has an animation which indeed looks as party friendly (I cannot extract IWD one, else I would gladly make it unfriendly), while the former looks unfriendly instead. :) We could live with both spells being friendly, but that would make the two spells slightly overlapping each other in terms of "usability".

Btw, which name are we going to use? I'm slightly in favour of Sound Burst right now, because of the two common PHB spells (the other one is Shout) it's the closest one in terms of lvl (the same, instead of Shout's 4th lvl) and concept (burst radius, not necessarily centered on the caster instead of cone shaped starting from caster). After all the only difference between PnP and our version is that we replace 1 round stun with deafness, which may actually fits a sound-based effect more than stun. The only other candidates probably are Spell Compendium's Sonic Blast and to a lesser extent PHB's Shatter.

Flame Arrow

Am I the only one who think this spell starts really too much weak (at 5th lvl it only does 4d6 fire dmg to 1 target) and ends up slightly too powerful (a 3rd lvl spell inflicting 20d6 dmg?)? What about having the caster get more arrows sooner (e.g. 1 arrow every other 2 lvls above 1st, or 1 arrow every 3 lvls?) and then cap a little bit earlier (9-12th lvl)?

You could increase the missile fraction of damage (to distinguish from fireball), but for a creature hit by multiple flame arrows in a round allow a second saving throw for the fire portion. This would make FA a bit stronger against groups of creatures, but not overpowered against a single creature.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by adding another save...

After discussing it with Ardanis I'm going to suggest this:
a) caster get 1 arrow every two lvls, up to 5 arrows
b) each arrow deals 4d6 fire dmg as per V2
c) on a successful save the target will avoid the entire dmg instead of halving it

Protection from Missiles

Quite a few players reported this spell to be really too much powerful, especially within BG1. Should I nerf it by making it grant immunity only against non-magical missiles as per vanilla, but granting a huge AC bonus vs missiles?

The 2nd ed version is actually mentioned as reducing missile damage by 1 pt per die (about 15%) even against magical missiles, which could be added.

Yeah I know, but physical resistance isn't going to be much useful for spellcasters (unless ToBEx concentration check will ever work). :D I'm really uncertain...but if I really have to remove the immunity I'd prefer AC over resistance.

Edited by Demivrgvs, 09 August 2011 - 04:34 PM.


#36 aVENGER_(RR)

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Posted 09 August 2011 - 09:13 PM

Damn, we checked only vanilla and SCS AI...I hate you! :D May I ask why you're using such a terrible spell? Is it a must have?


I thought it was pretty good for disabling low-level spellcasters. As you may know, some of RR's Shadow Thieves carry level 1-2 spell scrolls and Deafness seemed like a nice fit.
Another thing to note, if you want any of SR's new spells to be used by SCS/RR/aTweaks' AI, the chances for that are much better if you make them party friendly. :)

Btw, which name are we going to use?


Since RR already adds Sound Burst as a bard HLA, Sonic Blast sounds better to me. :D

#37 Shaitan

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Posted 10 August 2011 - 12:01 AM

Dire Charm
As previously mentioned, I'd like to make it work as per PnP, making the target go berserk, but I have to find out if this could mess with the AI.

Cool, I missed that.

Fireball
What do you think of reducing its AoE from 30 to 20 feet as per PnP? Would that be an advantage (more controllable in case the caster is struggling to not hit his allies) or not (in case there's no vulnerable ally to worry about)?

Great, that would reduce the sequencer "exploit" a bit.

Flame Arrow
Am I the only one who think this spell starts really too much weak (at 5th lvl it only does 4d6 fire dmg to 1 target) and ends up slightly too powerful (a 3rd lvl spell inflicting 20d6 dmg?)? What about having the caster get more arrows sooner (e.g. 1 arrow every other 2 lvls above 1st, or 1 arrow every 3 lvls?) and then cap a little bit earlier (9-12th lvl)?

I use it a lot, sounds ok with me, but OTOH it isn't really necessary. Remember the starting scene after Chateaux Irenicus.

Haste & Slow
Using custom secondary types we'll finally be able to make these two spells cancel each other correctly. I'm also thinking about a possible solution to make Slow really halve apr to all those classes with only 1 attack (aka all non-warriors), as the opcode itself doesn't reduce their apr to 1/2.

Nice

Lightning Bolt
Assuming I cannot make it work as per PnP, this spell has to be THE "1 target damaging spell" of choice on this lvl. Is the current dmg output and its progression fine? Does Flame Arrow still outshine it? :) Any other suggestion?

Fine as it is.

Protection from Missiles
Quite a few players reported this spell to be really too much powerful, especially within BG1. Should I nerf it by making it grant immunity only against non-magical missiles as per vanilla, but granting a huge AC bonus vs missiles?

It has also been suggested to make it scale with caster lvl, but doing that is kinda problematic (I have to create/add a bunch of pro files and patch all ammos and throwing weapons), especially if I also have to take into account mod-added items.

I didn't find it too powerful in BG1 (with SCS?SR). I don't think it should scale with level.

Skull Trap
Leaving aside that I'd really love it to work as per PnP (the skull is placed upon a conjured skeleton, and explodes when hit) but I can't do that, I'm simply thinking of making it not affect undead creatures (as per PnP) as it inflicts negative energy damage.

Good.
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#38 Salk

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Posted 10 August 2011 - 04:04 AM

I agree with all comments made by Shaitan above. :)

#39 Incantatar

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Posted 10 August 2011 - 07:23 AM

Protection from Missiles
It's not op imo. Even without a party its duration makes it a rather circumstantial spell. It's more useful in BG1 and nearly useless for most of BG2.

Fireball
What do you think of reducing its AoE from 30 to 20 feet as per PnP?

Not much. It's a popular spell but it's by no means a must have spell. Would be much better if there was a way to show the AoE before casting. Hardcore gamers know it by feel, but it takes a lot of time. The spell was much better in combination with unnerfed ProtfFire.

Edited by Incantatar, 10 August 2011 - 07:24 AM.


#40 Guest_Guest_Aranthys_*_*

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Posted 11 August 2011 - 12:19 AM

About Skulltrap :
How about turning it into a summon skeletton spell that explodes when killed, kinda like the "fireball exploding" kobolds that can be found ingame ?

About Fireball :
Honestly, it's a staple spell, and shouldn't be touched at all.

Protection from Missiles :
Gotta agree that it's a bit on the "too powerful side" (level 3 spell that grants, turn per level immunity to every kind of missile ?)

I'd say let it grant the following :
- immunity to non-magic arrows / bullets / bolts.
- immunity to acid arrow (spell)
- immunity to flame arrow (spell)

And an AC bonus VS missiles equal to caster level, up to whatever max you consider to be correct (10 ?)
That means the spell is still usefull against Melf minute meteors & other similar spells, magic arrows, magic bolts & so on, but it's a bit more balanced.

#41 JosephJohnson

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Posted 11 August 2011 - 08:03 AM

About Skulltrap :
How about turning it into a summon skeletton spell that explodes when killed, kinda like the "fireball exploding" kobolds that can be found ingame ?

About Fireball :
Honestly, it's a staple spell, and shouldn't be touched at all.

Protection from Missiles :
Gotta agree that it's a bit on the "too powerful side" (level 3 spell that grants, turn per level immunity to every kind of missile ?)

I'd say let it grant the following :
- immunity to non-magic arrows / bullets / bolts.
- immunity to acid arrow (spell)
- immunity to flame arrow (spell)

And an AC bonus VS missiles equal to caster level, up to whatever max you consider to be correct (10 ?)
That means the spell is still usefull against Melf minute meteors & other similar spells, magic arrows, magic bolts & so on, but it's a bit more balanced.

The Skull trap idea sounds great, but I can see a couple problems with it off the top of my head. First off, having a summoned skeleton at level 3 that can fight for you, that then explodes for 20 to 80 damage is way overpowered. Second, imagine how annoying it would be to use in a party with damage going all over the place. Third, you'd have to wait for the skeleton to be summoned. By the time he was in play, your enemies would already be in front of you.

Apparently I'm one of the few who actually likes the fireball idea. I vote yes.

I really love what Aranthys proposed for protection from missiles. I vote for his suggestion. The only thing I might change would be to remove immunity to non magic projectiles and grant an armor class bonus capped at 15 or 20. Remember, it's called protection, not immunity from magic missiles.

#42 Ardanis

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Posted 11 August 2011 - 08:44 AM

Skull Trap
Explosive skeletons are out of consideration due to frequent use of this spell by AI. That said, I'd prefer the vanilla "trap" version over a walking bomb.

Perhaps casting time should be increased to 1 turn, as with Symbols? This is a trap, after all, ought to take some time to place.

Fireball
Greater blast raduis is what distinguishes Fireball from Skull.
On the other hand, reducing raduis does limit the use of this spell in scout-ahead-and-fireball-from-out-of-their-sight tactic.

Protection from Missiles
Like Aranthys says, except I think AC bonus should be either 5+1/2lvl or 1/lvl.

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#43 Demivrgvs

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Posted 11 August 2011 - 09:48 AM

Deafness

Damn, we checked only vanilla and SCS AI...I hate you! :D May I ask why you're using such a terrible spell? Is it a must have?

I thought it was pretty good for disabling low-level spellcasters. As you may know, some of RR's Shadow Thieves carry level 1-2 spell scrolls and Deafness seemed like a nice fit.

Well, as good as it can seem to you, even 1st lvl spells outshine Deafness vs spellcasters and can at the same time be used against non-spellcasters. For example Charm Person (instead of 50% spell failure you get an allied mage), Spook (it has a huge -4 penalty on its save and a fleeting spellcaster is better than one who can still cast spells 50% of times) and Blindness too in theory but against players it doesn't work as it should.

Another thing to note, if you want any of SR's new spells to be used by SCS/RR/aTweaks' AI, the chances for that are much better if you make them party friendly. :)

I know, in fact the latest SCS is using quite a lot more spells than it previously did also thanks to this (e.g. Silence, Glyph of Warding, Symbols, etc.) and that's also why I planned Snilloc's Snowball Swarm to be party-friendly (as I do wish the AI to start using much more non-fire based spells). Anyway, if both this spell and SSS have to be party-friendly I'll have to make them "different" in another way, like making the former much less damaging than planned.

Btw, which name are we going to use?

Since RR already adds Sound Burst as a bard HLA, Sonic Blast sounds better to me. ;)

Hey that's not fair! I trouble myself about using a 1st lvl spell name for a 2nd lvl one and you instead use a very well known 2nd lvl spell name for an HLA?!? :D :D Sigh, I guess I have to live with the lesser famous name. :(

Fireball

What do you think of reducing its AoE from 30 to 20 feet as per PnP? Would that be an advantage (more controllable in case the caster is struggling to not hit his allies) or not (in case there's no vulnerable ally to worry about)?

Great, that would reduce the sequencer "exploit" a bit.

Sequencer exploit? ???

The spell was much better in combination with unnerfed ProtfFire.

Unnerfed ProFire? :)

Flame Arrow

Remember the starting scene after Chateaux Irenicus.

Irenicus doesn't use Flame Arrow anymore when SR is installed. :D

Protection from Missiles
I thought there was a much more wide consensus about it being OP, whereas it seems quite a few of us (me, Shaitan, Salk, Incantatar) don't consider it such. Anyway, the solution of making it grant a huge AC bonus means the spell will more or less work the same way (just less consistently).

If we implement this solution I wouldn't make it protect from Melf's Acid Arrow and Flame Arrow because such immunities would be "out of the blue" for a AC enhancing spell, though Shield spell pretty much has a similar "out of the blue" immunity vs Magic Missile. :O

P.S Am I the only one who finds starnge this spell is one of the few imposing a huge animation overlay over the protected creature despite its surely not-impressive power?

Skull Trap
For many reasons I really cannot make it work as per PnP. :)

Perhaps casting time should be increased to 1 turn, as with Symbols? This is a trap, after all, ought to take some time to place.

Oh, I forgot to suggest that myself! I think it's a must (Fire Trap and Glyph has 1 round casting time too), and it would also make Fireball much more appealing with its faster casting time.

Edited by Demivrgvs, 12 August 2011 - 01:01 AM.


#44 Guest_Guest_Aranthys_*_*

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Posted 11 August 2011 - 11:40 PM

Actually I don't agree with a 1 round casting time for a spell that is basically a lower radius fireball that can also be used as a trap.
If it can't deal damage to undead, then there's no need to increase its cast time.
Same for glyph spells.. I don't find them powerful enough to warrant a 1 round cast time.
The 1 round cast time only makes them bad at beeing used in combat, it doesnt lower the power of "stacking" traps.

#45 Guest_Guest_Aranthys_*_*

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Posted 16 August 2011 - 01:50 AM

Additional Comments

[quote name='Demivrgvs' date='Aug 2 2011, 06:58 AM' post='188765']Blur
Its +3 bonus to AC will be implemented as four "hidden AC bonus vs dmg type" making it bypass the AC cap.[/b]

Why should the spell bypass the AC cap ?
The AC Cap is -20. That's more than enough, don't you think ?

Also, if you're at the AC cap with that spell, it means that you can then use other items instead of +AC ones..
Actually, I'd advice against bypassing AC cap for any effect that grants "generic AC", with generic as "not a bonus against a specific type of damage".



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