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Bless, Aid and Chant


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#1 Guest_frabjous_*

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Posted 03 August 2007 - 10:46 AM

I know the fixpack fixes Chant so that it affects enemies as it should, but with regard to the caster (and allies), it does not seem to grant a damage bonus, as it says in its description that it should.

Well: let me qualify that. When using it conjunction with Righteous Magic I don't do any more damage that I would do with Righteous Magic alone. Unless it's implemented in such a way that raises the damage roll by 1, but will not take it above maximum (so that it doesn't raise maximum damage possible), it seems to be bugged.

(I should be clear that I don't think your fix created this problem: I think it's always been there.)

Ironically, on the other hand, both Bless and Aid do seem to be giving a damage bonus, despite that neither spell description suggests that it should (unless we interpret "+1 to attack rolls" as affecting both to-hit and damage, but that isn't usually the case).

Moreover, Bless and Aid stack with each other. I don't think they should, since I interpret Aid as providing Bless to the recipient along with the extra hit points. This is a matter of interpretation, however.

Is there, or could there be, any plans in a future version of the fixpack (or the tweakpack if that is thought more suitable) to fix these spells so that they work like their descriptions suggest: or at least, fix their descriptions.

On a slightly related note, I think the description for the Luck spell could be made to be less vague.

(I'm playing fully patched ToB with the fixpack v4 installed, BTW.)

Thanks for listening and thanks for all your hard work on the excellent mods.

#2 devSin

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Posted 07 August 2007 - 08:45 PM

This is a tough one. The effects themselves are hardcoded, and if we were to add attack damage bonuses, the spells would have to be made non-cumulative (on top of the already-not-cumulative bless, chant, and aid effects). Chant is already pretty worthless (compared to bless and aid, as you point out), so I'm not sure if it's worth it to make such a change at this point.

I disagree wrt bless and aid. They both apply a type of blessing, but it doesn't have to be inferred that the blessings are one and the same. Also, this would be inconsistent with other spells (for instance, you can cross-stack a wizard's protection from fire with a cleric's for double the bonus). This would also be another place where we'd just be adding protection from the entire spell for the duration; after the troubles with improved invisibility, I'm pretty wary of doing this where it isn't necessary.

Nythrun did the chant fix, and she should have a more ready idea of the benefits and possible drawbacks of both of the above, so I'd wait for her feedback on what changes should be made here.

#3 Guest_frabjous_*

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Posted 09 August 2007 - 10:47 AM

Thanks for the reply.

Obviously, this isn't a big deal. If fixing the spell effects isn't practical, it would still be nice to have the game text update change the spell descriptions so that they're more accurate and/or less vague.

Speaking personally, I've played for years favoring Chant over Aid, thinking I was getting a damage bonus. Only recently did I realize it wasn't working as I thought. If the descriptions were accurate, at least fewer people might make that mistake (if indeed there's anyone left playing who doesn't know this already).

#4 Nythrun

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Posted 15 November 2007 - 01:18 AM

Missed this one, sorry.

Chant's bonus to damage is like Luck's (i.e. it's a probability shift, "up to the weapon's maximum damage" is how it's usually phrased). It works, just in the way that plus one is always worth less than one damage.

The manual supports that "attack rolls" usually means only to-hit rolls, so the descriptions could stand to be clearer.

Bless and Aid use two different non-self-cumulative effects which aren't used elsewhere in the game, meaning the developers had to go out of their way to make these two stackable. Not terribly far out of their way, since the effects are probably identical cut and pastes (Avenger would know for sure), but far enough that it's not likely to be an accident.
"You tell lies, too."
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#5 Guest_frabjous_*

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Posted 20 November 2007 - 07:48 PM

Thanks for the reply.

Yeah, that makes sense for Chant -- I guess that's the limitation of only testing with Righteous Magic.

Could the text update at least clarify the descriptions of these spells (all four)?

#6 Salk

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Posted 21 November 2007 - 12:55 AM

Hello!

Yes, the GTU should amend the text so that it becomes clearer.

Anybody has some suggestions about how the spells' text should be modified?

#7 frabjous

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Posted 06 December 2007 - 04:36 PM

Hello!

Yes, the GTU should amend the text so that it becomes clearer.

Anybody has some suggestions about how the spells' text should be modified?


Well, I'll take an initial stab at them. I've tried to preserve their current descriptions as closely as possible. The words I added are in bold. Words deleted are stricken-through.

I was a but unsure about Chant, however. I know the effects on enemies were added by the Fixpack. I assume they work just like the effects on allies, so that no die rolls are lowered below their normal minimum values, but I'm not sure sure it was implemented this way.

Bless (Conjuration/Summoning)
Level: 1
Sphere: All
Range: 60 yards
Duration: 6 rounds
Casting Time: 1 round
Area of Effect: 50-foot cube
Saving Throw: None

Upon uttering the bless spell, the caster raises the morale of friendly creatures and any saving throw rolls they make against fear effects by + 1. Furthermore, it raises their attack and damage dice rolls by +1. The caster determines at what range (up to 60 yards) he will cast the spell. At the instant the spell is completed, it affects all creatures in a 50-foot cube centered on the point selected by the caster (thus, affected creatures leaving the area are still subject to the spell's effect; those entering the area after the casting is completed are not).

Chant (Conjuration/Summoning)
Level: 2
Sphere: Combat
Range: 0
Duration: 1 turn
Casting Time: 1 round
Area of Effect: 30-foot radius
Saving Throw: None

By means of the chant spell, the priest brings special favor upon himself and his party, and causes harm to his enemies. When the chant spell is completed, all attack and damage rolls and saving throws made by those in the area of effect who are friendly to the priest gain + 1 bonuses, while those of the priest's enemies suffer -1 penalties. However, these bonuses and penalties will not raise or lower dice rolls above or below their usual boundaries. For example, a damage roll of 6 on 1d8 for a successful attack made by an affected ally will be raised to a 7, a 7 will be raised to an 8, but an 8 will remain an 8. Multiple chants are not cumulative.

Aid (Necromancy, Conjuration)
Level: 2
Sphere: Necromantic
Range: Touch
Duration: 1 round + 1 round/level
Casting Time: 5
Area of Effect: Creature touched
Saving Throw: None

The recipient of this spell gains the benefits similar to those of a bless spell (+ 1 to attack rolls, damage rolls and saving throws -- these benefits stack with those of the bless spell) and a special bonus of 1d8 additional hit points for the duration of the spell. The aid spell enables the recipient to actually have more hit points than his full normal total. The bonus hit points are lost first when the recipient takes damage; they cannot be regained by curative magic. Example: A 1st-level fighter has 8 hit points, suffers 2 points of damage (8 - 2 = 6), and then receives an aid spell that gives 5 additional hit points. The fighter now has 11 hit points, 3 of which are temporary. If he is then hit for 7 points of damage, 4 normal hit points and all 3 temporary hit points are lost. He then receives a cure light wounds spell that heals 4 points of damage, restoring him to his original 8 hit points.

Luck (Enchantment/Charm)
Level: 2
Range: 10 yards
Duration: 3 rounds
Casting Time: 2
Area of Effect: 1 creature
Saving Throw: None

The recipient of this spell is lucky in everything that he does for the next 3 rounds. He receives a 5% bonus to any of his actions. This includes saving throws, to hit chances, thieving skills, etc. This means that dice rolls are raised by 5% of their maximum value, although a die roll will not be raised above the highest value normally possible for it, so that, for example, a roll of 18 on a twenty-sided die would be raised to 19, a 19 would be raised to 20 but a 20 would remain a 20.

Feel free to alter, criticize, change, etc. I'm not fussy about wording.

#8 Salk

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Posted 07 December 2007 - 04:36 AM

It seems pretty good already to me.

We just need to wait for Nythrun to confirm that the fixed version of Chant present in the Fixpack applies the same penalties to both allies and foes.

#9 Nythrun

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Posted 07 December 2007 - 05:20 AM

Consider it confirmed :D

CamDawg was off trying to unblargify the GTU last I heard from him, so this is well timed :)
"You tell lies, too."
"Not I." The witch laughed; her laughter was clear and yet unpleasant. "I used to as a child, I confess. But I soon found the truth more disconcerting."

#10 CamDawg

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Posted 07 December 2007 - 09:02 AM

CamDawg was off trying to unblargify the GTU last I heard from him, so this is well timed :D

Yep--talk about a thankless slog through a trackless waste... :)

I'm at about strref 7000, but my first pass is just to roll back spurious changes and move fixes from the GTU to the core fixes. Subsequent passes should be faster and will focus more on consistency (i.e. grandmastery vs. grand mastery, item descripts, etc.) and clarifications.

Why is this Hypnotoad video so popu... ALL GLORY TO THE HYPNOTOAD.


#11 Bursk

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Posted 07 December 2007 - 11:59 AM


CamDawg was off trying to unblargify the GTU last I heard from him, so this is well timed :D

Yep--talk about a thankless slog through a trackless waste... :)

I'm at about strref 7000, but my first pass is just to roll back spurious changes and move fixes from the GTU to the core fixes. Subsequent passes should be faster and will focus more on consistency (i.e. grandmastery vs. grand mastery, item descripts, etc.) and clarifications.

Cam, while you're doing this could you take a quick look at the weapon prof descriptions during character generation? I might be wrong, but it looks to me like there are double spaces used for all weapons except darts and flails (this is with Rebalanced Weapon Proficiencies from BG2 Tweaks installed).

If you take a look at the katana you'll see that there appears to be a double space at the start before 'Katanas and...':

http://img153.images...baldr009uq0.jpg

Here's the scimitar:

http://img135.images...baldr007bz5.jpg

Every other weapon seems to have a similarly sized space, expect for these two:

http://img525.images...baldr003ft9.jpg

http://img515.images...baldr002xn6.jpg

Perhaps I'm imagining this and/or it's a non-issue, but since I'm trying to be thorough and look at all aspects of the game, I thought it'd be worth mentioning.

#12 Kulyok

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Posted 07 December 2007 - 12:04 PM

I'm at about strref 7000, but my first pass is just to roll back spurious changes and move fixes from the GTU to the core fixes.


:) But... but... but think of all these light and sunny and supportive posts I can write!

#13 Nythrun

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Posted 07 December 2007 - 03:11 PM

Are you feeling quite well? :)
"You tell lies, too."
"Not I." The witch laughed; her laughter was clear and yet unpleasant. "I used to as a child, I confess. But I soon found the truth more disconcerting."

#14 aVENGER_(RR)

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Posted 07 December 2007 - 09:33 PM

Luck (Enchantment/Charm)
Level: 2
Range: 10 yards
Duration: 3 rounds
Casting Time: 2
Area of Effect: 1 creature
Saving Throw: None

The recipient of this spell is lucky in everything that he does for the next 3 rounds. He receives a 5% bonus to any of his actions. This includes saving throws, to hit chances, thieving skills, etc. This means that dice rolls are raised by 5% of their maximum value, although a die roll will not be raised above the highest value normally possible for it, so that, for example, a roll of 18 on a twenty-sided die would be raised to 19, a 19 would be raised to 20 but a 20 would remain a 20.


The thieving skill and saving throw bonuses are not implemented in BG2.

Edited by aVENGER_[RR], 07 December 2007 - 09:38 PM.


#15 frabjous

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Posted 07 December 2007 - 09:49 PM

What is implemented then? Just to hit rolls? What about damage rolls? (And what is +5% on 1d4 or 1d6? :) Surely the game does not use fractions of hit points.)

I'd be happy to rewrite the description again, but of course, I'd need to know what it actually does.



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