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Keys being Used up by Doors


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#46 Kish

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Posted 17 October 2006 - 10:22 AM

For some of the off-beat requirements, I always imagined that Cromwell had some kind of a weird juice extractor that he would use to get the Essence of Ogreness out of the Gauntlets of Ogre Power needed for Crom Fayr (not even going to try to spell it). Either that or to wield it, you had to stick your hands in the gloves that were already attached.

In AD&D, you were supposed to get special "set"-style bonuses from wielding a Hammer of Thunderbolts while wearing a Girdle of Giant Strength and Gauntlets of Ogre Power, is what Crom Faeyr and its recipe come from.
"You are what you do. Choose again, and change."
--Miles Vorkosigan

"The really unforgivable acts are committed by calm men in beautiful green silk rooms, who deal death wholesale, by the shipload, without lust, or anger, or desire, or any redeeming emotion to excuse them but cold fear of some pretended future. But the crimes they hope to prevent in the future are imaginary. The ones they commit in the present--they are real."
--Aral Vorkosigan

#47 Caedwyr

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Posted 30 July 2007 - 09:07 AM

Taking another look at this, and I have to say that changing the behaviour of certain keys and their being consumed feels a lot more like a tweak to me than a necessary fix. Not changing it has no negative effect on a person's gameplay other than a little bit of confusion about why some keys disappear and others don't I'd suggest sticking this in the optional but cool component.

#48 Artimus

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Posted 30 July 2007 - 09:55 AM

Taking another look at this, and I have to say that changing the behaviour of certain keys and their being consumed feels a lot more like a tweak to me than a necessary fix. Not changing it has no negative effect on a person's gameplay other than a little bit of confusion about why some keys disappear and others don't I'd suggest sticking this in the optional but cool component.


I hate to make the slippery slope argument, I really do.

Now a days, many mods expect you to have the Fixpack installed.

The way I see it, the point of a fixpack is to get the game to a "stable base".

If my mods have to check for twenty-something different components of a fixpack, I no longer am working on a stable base.

The way I see it, there are two options:

1) Fixpack includes most fixes by default, even the "questionable" ones. A couple of mods such as Ruad have to be updated to work around certain things. It's not that hard to stop a key from being destroyed. If the fixpack can have the key consumed, you can just as easily stop it from being consumed in your mod. It's not like your mod should be installed before the Fixpack anyway

2) Fixpack breaks up into many different components. *EVERY* mod has to be updated. I can see the code now. IF statements upon IF statements. Is alignment fixes installed? Do doors consume keys? Does free action protect against stun? Is Irenicus Chaotic Good? This inconvienances MANY mods.

I don't see why the needs of the few should outweigh the needs of the many.

-Artimus

#49 Caedwyr

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Posted 30 July 2007 - 10:06 AM

Good, more debate please :cry:

#50 Artimus

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Posted 30 July 2007 - 11:58 AM

Feel free if not encouraged to refute my points.

My positions are not necessarily fixed.

Since you brought it up more debate, Caedwyr, thank you for volunteering.

I guess I'll pose a question:

Is there any reason we can't make keys used up by doors and have individual mods override keys on a case-by-case basis if they need them?

How hard is it to check for the fixpack and remove the part about consuming the key? I don't deal with items often, so forgive me, I don't know what it entails.

For example, Item Upgrade wants to use the Symbol. In the install, it checks for the fixpack. If the fixpack is installed, the mod patches so the Symbol is no longer consumed.

EDIT: I misread your post. If you don't cheat in a Bag of Holding, keys can take up lots of space. I know I though to myself "the key is still in my inventory. Do I still need it? I'd better save it, just in case". It simply increases clutter and leads to me playing inventory-management to hold on to keys "just in case". Usually, they're not needed.

I think the only reason a key should be left in the inventory is if you really need to keep it. If the non-important keys are all consumed, a player is going to see the key still in their inventory (not consumed) and think "wow, this might have a use, I'd better hang on to it."

For ease of modding, I'm against the creation of yet more Optional But Cool components. I hate checking a big list of components. I'd rather ensure that Fixpack = YES and be done with it, overriding things if I need to.

Edited by Artimus, 30 July 2007 - 12:04 PM.


#51 devSin

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Posted 30 July 2007 - 12:51 PM

How hard is it to check for the fixpack and remove the part about consuming the key? I don't deal with items often, so forgive me, I don't know what it entails.

Ignoring the merits of actually having the key behavior changes as a fix (I'm trying my best to sidestep it, sorry), disabling the consumption of any particular key requires changing a single bit of the door structure in the area definition (the same as enabling it). You don't even have to check for the fixpack (or any other mod); using BUT_ONLY_IF_IT_CHANGES, the patch will only be applied if the bit is changed (either the fixpack or some other mod changed it; otherwise, the file won't be copied at all).

Edited by devSin, 30 July 2007 - 12:54 PM.


#52 jastey

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Posted 30 July 2007 - 02:50 PM

Since this thread was revived I have to tell that Sim's post about one boot of speed and the PC going in circles made me laugh out loud. In the office. I shouldn't follow links and read them when being in the office. It was kind of embarassing, to be caught wasting my working time. Especially if I go on giggling for a minute or so. Shhhzz.

#53 Kulyok

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Posted 30 July 2007 - 09:54 PM

The one on page 3? I read it yesterday before going to bed - I must say, I giggled, too. But I liked the post about the lightning more, even though after reading it, I lost any desire to continue the argument - who can say any better?

#54 Baronius

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Posted 31 July 2007 - 11:07 AM

No need for an OBC component for each problematic fix. They can all be incorporated to one additional component. Of course, only after they were re-examined based on the dependency theory I introduced. The additional optional components are only partial solution though. The complete solution requires a reorganization (which means a different file for all the subjective fixes, and another file for the (real) fixes; i.e. two mods). Since real fixes only minimally endanger potential dependencies of other mods, they cause no problem, and that file (*the* BG2 Fixpack) could possibly be supported by more complex, sensitive or big mods.

Edited by Baronius, 31 July 2007 - 11:46 AM.




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