Shapeshifters

[CamDawg]

In the course of coding for Delainy, I had to solve many of the problems facing lycanthropes and the limitations of the engine. Most of the fixes--such as the dispel magic/paw* problem--were solved back in the first alpha, but the newest build has added more improvements. I've had some inquiries as to whether I would be willing to release it as a tweak pack component, so here we are. Keep in mind that a lot of these shapeshifting changes were made with a true lycanthrope in mind, not necessarily an infected lycanthrope (shapeshifter druids) or magical polymorphing.

 

Delainy uses an at-will shapeshift with the drawback that transforming incrementally fatigues her. Originally she was disallowed from wearing armor as a shapeshifter, but we recently made a change to allow her to wear armor with the caveat that her shifting is disallowed while armor is worn. It was a logical change and one that was well-received by the playtesters.

 

So to generalize, the dispel magic/paw solution is in hand and could be extended beyond shapeshifters to magical polymorphing. The shapeshifter druid armor restriction could also be lifted with the same disallowed shapeshifting caveat, and the at-will with fatigue shapeshifting is simple to implement. In short, I'm looking to see if folks would be interested in Yet Another Shapeshifting Rebalce/Fix/Tweak or if they have suggestions for improvements or concerns.

 

* When polymorphing, characters get a magically created 'paw' as a weapon in a special weapon slot. When a creature is hit with Dispel Magic, anything in this special weapon slot is destoyed 100% of the time. The only workarounds are to make the creature immune to Dispel Magic, create the paw in a different manner (Weimer's solution for EoU) or to have the paw be re-created if dispelled (Refinements uses this, but it can not be extended beyond shapeshifters as it requires an empty armor slot AFAIK).

[Caedwyr]

From some of the comments Littiz has made, I thought that Refinements managed to solve the dispel issue for all polymorph/shapechange type spells and abilities.

 

 

I do like the armor restriction removal for the shapeshifter druids. As for the other shapechanges, polymorph self is the only one that can be dispelled according to the game materials, so I'd be happy for you to extend the shapeshifting fix to the other shapechanging spells and abilities (and maybe fix up polymorph self so it is properly dispelled). For the shapeshifter druid I can see having a limited number of shapechanges per day, since the druid is supposedly using extensive training and mastery of self to control the infected lycanthropy. I like how Refinements handles this part and the Shapeshifter HLAs for ToB which reflect a more powerful druid being able to gain at-will like changing abilities.

 

I think it is important to keep some distinction between True Lycanthropes and infected (Shapeshifter Druids).

[hlidskialf]

Intriguing take on it. Very nice.

I once, looooong ago, ran a game with a secondary NPC that was a wolfwere companion. ie. Was a wolf that could "upshift" to the wolfwere. This could be done at will, but in the interest of *some* balance I added a little tweak that might be interesting enough for your rebalance. Reputation loss and possible panic. Since nothing prevents the player from wandering around in endless furry-form, and to inspire roleplay shifts between flesh and fur, I felt this worked well. If in were-form and wandering into town, odds are IMO that the general populace would be less likely to chat, offer the party cookies, and generally treat him/her as a regular adventurer. This forced the character out of were-form before heading for supplies, talking to the mayor, etc... if things were to go well. Add it to the fatigue setup you have currently and I think it'd add quite a role-play element otherwise lacking.

"Delainy m'luv, I know you're tired, but if you don't shift back to human form we are never going to be able to get a room at the inn! We just need to be careful we don't get a random encou-err attacked on the way."

[CamDawg]

Heh, mind reader. Delainy does incur a rep penalty for wandering around townsfolk while shapeshifted, and there are a number of interested parties (benevolent and otherwise) around town...

 

I hadn't considered the panic idea. It's a good idea, but I'm worried it may induce game-breaking events, like someone running from an area and then having some AreaCheck or See trigger fail in a script or dialogue.

[hlidskialf]

Heh, mind reader. Delainy does incur a rep penalty for wandering around townsfolk while shapeshifted, and there are a number of interested parties (benevolent and otherwise) around town...

 

I hadn't considered the panic idea. It's a good idea, but I'm worried it may induce game-breaking events, like someone running from an area and then having some AreaCheck or See trigger fail in a script or dialogue.

Proof that there's no truely original idea. (Since caveman days anyways.)

As for the panic bit, yeah it'd be quite problematic. Since it was my own game I just managed things carefully. For a public release you'd need more "idiot-proofing". Something along the lines of Max's infamous FreakTech scripting would be ideal here, but also a lot of extra work. Mayhap just throw in the odd dialog to surprise the abuser of the were-form in the shops or taverns.

"Didn't you read the sign? No pets allowed, now get out."

[jester]

I love that idea though. In Fallout2 everybody in New Reno comments on your special armour. Same should be here with any form of shapechange. I think a lycanthrope (however nice and controlled) freaks the general populace just as much as a vampire.

 

.....can't wait to play it.

[Littiz]

Please, allow me to enter this debate, as I spent *a lot* of time over this issues, and I'm currently working on further upgrades for Refinements V2.

 

* When polymorphing, characters get a magically created 'paw' as a weapon in a special weapon slot. When a creature is hit with Dispel Magic, anything in this special weapon slot is destoyed 100% of the time. The only workarounds are to make the creature immune to Dispel Magic, create the paw in a different manner (Weimer's solution for EoU) or to have the paw be re-created if dispelled (Refinements uses this, but it can not be extended beyond shapeshifters as it requires an empty armor slot AFAIK).

 

It can and I did it

I just had to use a slightly different and trickier mechanism.

As for the current release, Refinements fixes *all* the druidical forms: wolf, bear, spider, wyvern, salamander, werewolf, and the two elemental forms.

The trickiest part is not building the fix itself: the hard point is that theorically most of these forms, given the nature of the fix, can "mess" together if not properly handled. Indeed a great part of the effort was put to solve these "secondary" clashing issues (since I wanted a druid to be able to change between forms without being forced to pass through the natural form).

 

For Version 2, I've already fixed a couple of bugs that somehow survived so far, and we are now entirely reworking the Elemental Transformation HLAs (we will provide a single ability that will allow to choose between four elemental forms, since we're adding even the Water and Air ones).

*If* I find the time, I might alter somewhat the technical solution used (it can be made a little more efficient, I'm just slightly reluctant to apply this change since everything is working fine anyway and I wouldn't want to introduce bugs).

 

About magical polymorphing, it is planned for future versions of Refinements, when we'll do the Spell Revision component.

 

Sorry, all of this to explain our "position" in the issue.

Again, we have the option to proceede together (I can provide my versions if you're interested) or separately

[CamDawg]

Oh! Sorry, didn't realize that Refinements had generalized the paw solution, so kudos. I'd love to see what you have in progress; I'll follow up with a PM. If we can collaborate it'll make it a lot easier for both of us.

 

OK, so the polymorphing fix won't be new, so I guess now I'm fishing for feedback on the idea of the at-will shapeshifter abilities and allowing them to use armor.

[Andyr]

Modifying ITMs to let Shapeshifters use armour could cause a couple of issues with kits and things which use that flag to make the character not be able to use armour, such as the Feralan in UB.

 

Or if you were going to do it that way, would you just set the Shapeshifter kit to use the True Class flag?

[CamDawg]

That's exactly what I do. Shapeshifters move to the 0x00004000 usability (trueclass) and I add a shapeshifting spell immunity to armor.

[Andyr]

I should've known you'd have an answer.