Guest frabjous Posted August 28, 2007 Share Posted August 28, 2007 I've recently noticed that you get XP (12,500) if you kill the Glabrezu that is gated in by the Summon Fiend spell. ...Or at least this is true on my installation. I have a number of mods installed (Fixpack v4, Ascension, Longer Road, Sim's QuestPack, some of the Tweakpack). The fixpack at least changes the .CRE file (--I think the revalant one is DEMGLASU.CRE). However, the problem persists even if I remove the DEMGLASU.CRE and DEMGLASU.BCS files from my /override directory, so I conclude this is how it is in the unmodded game as well. Personally, I think this is clearly a bug. No XP is awarded for killing Cacofiend's Nabassu or Gate's Pit Fiend, and I think it would clearly be dev intent for these to be consistent. (Of course, this is also true of most summoned mosters, though these are meant to be different, as they start hostile.) The infinite XP mining potential is obvious. All it takes is a 1st level Prot. from Evil and you're invulnerable. Keep casting Summon Fiend and killing the Fiend for free XP. Rest and repeat. I did notice a brief mention, sort of on this issue, is an old thread here: http://forums.gibberlings3.net/index.php?showtopic=3613 There it's declared "Not a bug", but there's no indication there that there's a difference between this spell and the other demon summoning spells (indeed, that thread seems to suggest that XP is given for any of them, which is not true). Maybe this is a matter of interpretation, but I actualy think it's pretty clear. Another oddity I noticed with the Glabrezu is that unlike the Nabassu and Pit Fiend, it would not attack unprotected-from-evil blue-circle neutrals, whereas the others do. (Again this seemed to be true with or without the file in the override directory.) In a way this is good, because it at least complicates certain other exploits (e.g., having your cake and eating it too with the Sarles quest, by gating in a demon to kill him after turning in the illithium to get the better Temple reward but also build the improved Mace of Disruption--though this exploit can still be done if you just hit Sarles with your fist to turn him hostile and then let the Glabrezu finish him off.) (It might be nice if the fixpack made the illithium disappear from Sarles when the reward was given by the temple, if that's possible... or even disappear earlier.) Anyway, the XP from the glabrezu would be very easy to mod away if you were interested, either as a core component, or an optional one (or a Tweakpack component instead). Link to comment
Drew Posted September 8, 2007 Share Posted September 8, 2007 Well, being that it's gated rather than summoned, and will attack your party if you haven't taken the proper precautions, I don't think this is a bug. Link to comment
Guest frabjous Posted September 11, 2007 Share Posted September 11, 2007 If that were correct logic, then one ought to get XP for killing Cacofiend's Nabassu and Gate's Pit Fiend, but you don't. It's the inconsistency that bothers me most of all--though it seems not awarding XP makes far more sense overall given the exploit-potential here. Link to comment
Drew Posted September 20, 2007 Share Posted September 20, 2007 If that were correct logic, then one ought to get XP for killing Cacofiend's Nabassu and Gate's Pit Fiend, but you don't.Now that would be a bug. At least in my opinion. Link to comment
Guest frabjous Posted September 20, 2007 Share Posted September 20, 2007 I don't understand the difference of opinion between those cases. Why would it be a bug if XP were granted in those cases, but not a bug that XP is granted in this case? What could be the possible rationale for treating Summon Fiend differently from Cacofiend and Gate? P.S. Hey, I used to live in Iowa City... playing Chess on that giant chessboard near the library, evading the Add Sheet freaks, people watching on the ped mall... those were the days. Link to comment
Drew Posted September 21, 2007 Share Posted September 21, 2007 What could be the possible rationale for treating Summon Fiend differently from Cacofiend and Gate?There really isn't a good one. Since the demons are gated in and hostile for all 3 instances, they should all yield XP. Sure, it's easily exploitable with a simple first level spell, but the fixpack doesn't stop players from sucking down thievery potions and robbing merchants of their entire inventory and selling it right back to them in some instances, so the fact that it can be exploited hardly sounds relevant to me. Link to comment
Guest frabjous Posted September 26, 2007 Share Posted September 26, 2007 If that were correct logic, then one ought to get XP for killing Cacofiend's Nabassu and Gate's Pit Fiend, but you don't. Now that would be a bug. At least in my opinion. There really isn't a good one. Since the demons are gated in and hostile for all 3 instances, they should all yield XP. Let's see if I have this straight. They all should yield XP, but it would be a bug if they did (in your opinion anyway)? Yeah yeah, I know.... consistency is the bugbear of little minds... Well, at least now you agree that the three demon summoning (gating) spells ought to be consistent. I'd rather have a fix in the fixpack that gave XP for all three over not having any fix at all, though if the deciding factor were dev intent, I think the fact that two of the spells award no XP (which must have involved creating separate and modified .CRE files for the summoned versions of the demons, and hence must have been deliberate), it seems clearly dev intent not to award the XP. I'm aware that the game doesn't attempt to close off all exploits. Personally, however, it seems clear that there is a bug here of one sort or another. Either it is bugged in giving XP for the gated Glabrezu, or it is bugged in not giving XP for the gated Nabassus and Pit Fiends. The worry about one allowing for an exploit just seems like another reason to interpret the real bug as being the former rather than the latter. Apart from that, we'd just have to agree to disagree. Not really worth gettng excited about. The fix can be made by any player him or herself with a tool as simple as Shadowkeeper. It just seems that as long as the fixpack were overwriting the DEMGLASU.CRE file anyway, they might as well fix it. Link to comment
devSin Posted September 27, 2007 Share Posted September 27, 2007 Yeah, I thought we had already taken care of this. I suppose it is worth discussion, but in this case, I'm happy with majority rules (meaning 0 XP, since almost all summons, and gatings, for the pedantic, spawn creatures that don't give XP). Link to comment
Guest Guest Posted October 21, 2007 Share Posted October 21, 2007 I believe both sides have merit (personally, I like the idea of distinguishing between 'summoned' and 'gated' for game immersion and RP). As this is only a consistency 'bug', I think everyone (players) will be divided between the two possible solutions. It won’t be easy, based on only three gated creatures, to justify a one-sided solution. In such a case, I'm in the opinion to give the player the option. This fix can be classified as an Optional-but-Cool consistency fix. Each player can then decide how to handle the issue based on his/her own game expectations and RP. hmm...I suppose something should be provided in the Core fixes... Possibly remove the XP in the Core fixes, then an Optional-but-Cool fix could be provided for those that want the XP. Just my thoughts…watch as they drift away… Link to comment
Nythrun Posted December 12, 2007 Share Posted December 12, 2007 These are all the gender 6 or 9 creatures with a non-zero XP value. Quite a few need to be pulled. COPY_EXISTING ~alufie02.cre~ ~override~ // Alu-Fiend ~balor01.cre~ ~override~ // Balor ~basilgsu.cre~ ~override~ // Greater Basilisk ~basillsu.cre~ ~override~ // Lesser Basilisk ~bearblsu.cre~ ~override~ // Black Bear ~bearbrsu.cre~ ~override~ // Brown Bear ~bearcasu.cre~ ~override~ // Cave Bear ~beargrsu.cre~ ~override~ // Grizzly Bear ~bearposu.cre~ ~override~ // Mountain Bear ~c6guen.cre~ ~override~ // Guenhwyvar ~cambion1.cre~ ~override~ // Cambion ~catjagsu.cre~ ~override~ // Panther ~catjagwp.cre~ ~override~ // Panther ~catliosu.cre~ ~override~ // Lion ~catliowp.cre~ ~override~ // Joolon ~dagnoll.cre~ ~override~ // Gnoll ~daumber.cre~ ~override~ // Umber Hulk ~deckfele.cre~ ~override~ // Fire Elemental ~dembal01.cre~ ~override~ // Balor ~dembal02.cre~ ~override~ // Balor ~demglasu.cre~ ~override~ // Glabrezu ~demnab01.cre~ ~override~ // Nabassu ~demnab02.cre~ ~override~ // Nabassu ~demosum4.cre~ ~override~ // Cambion ~dempit.cre~ ~override~ // Pit Fiend ~djinnisu.cre~ ~override~ // Djinni ~dogwasu.cre~ ~override~ // War Dog ~dogwisu.cre~ ~override~ // Rabid Dog ~efreetsu.cre~ ~override~ // Efreeti ~elfirsu.cre~ ~override~ // Fire Elemental ~ettercsu.cre~ ~override~ // Ettercap ~ghastgsu.cre~ ~override~ // Greater Ghast ~ghastsu.cre~ ~override~ // Skeleton ~gibbersu.cre~ ~override~ // Gibberling ~gnollsu.cre~ ~override~ // Gnoll Elite ~gormistp.cre~ ~override~ // Poison Mist ~haksu.cre~ ~override~ // Hakeashar ~hamasu.cre~ ~override~ // Hamadryad ~hobgobsu.cre~ ~override~ // Hobgoblin Elite ~jaguarsu.cre~ ~override~ // Jaguar ~jellmusu.cre~ ~override~ // Mustard Jelly ~koboldsu.cre~ ~override~ // Kobold Commando ~mistpo01.cre~ ~override~ // Poison Mist ~nishrusu.cre~ ~override~ // Nishruu ~nymphsu.cre~ ~override~ // Nymph ~ogregrsu.cre~ ~override~ // Ogre Berserker ~ogremasu.cre~ ~override~ // Ogre Mage ~rabbitsu.cre~ ~override~ // Rabbit ~sahangu.cre~ ~override~ // Anguiliian ~sahlace.cre~ ~override~ // Lacedon ~sahskel.cre~ ~override~ // Skeleton Warrior ~sahzomb.cre~ ~override~ // Sea Zombie ~senstalk.cre~ ~override~ // Invisible Stalker ~servsu.cre~ ~override~ // Aerial Servant ~shadowsu.cre~ ~override~ // Shadow ~skelwasu.cre~ ~override~ // Skeleton Warrior ~smoundsu.cre~ ~override~ // Shambling Mound ~spidgisu.cre~ ~override~ // Giant Spider ~spidphsu.cre~ ~override~ // Phase Spider ~spidswsu.cre~ ~override~ // Sword Spider ~stalke.cre~ ~override~ // Invisible Stalker ~sumdjinn.cre~ ~override~ // Djinni ~sumefree.cre~ ~override~ // Efreeti ~sumelair.cre~ ~override~ // Lesser Air Elemental ~sumelear.cre~ ~override~ // Lesser Earth Elemental ~sumelfir.cre~ ~override~ // Lesser Fire Elemental ~sumtan01.cre~ ~override~ // Tanar'ri ~sumtan02.cre~ ~override~ // Tanar'ri ~tasloisu.cre~ ~override~ // Tasloi Elite Trooper ~telbal2.cre~ ~override~ // Balor ~telcam1.cre~ ~override~ // Cambion ~telelfir.cre~ ~override~ // Greater Fire Elemental ~telicesa.cre~ ~override~ // Ice Salamander ~telsuc1.cre~ ~override~ // Alu-Fiend ~tomegol1.cre~ ~override~ // Flesh Golem ~tomegol2.cre~ ~override~ // Clay Golem ~tomegol3.cre~ ~override~ // Stone Golem ~tomegol4.cre~ ~override~ // Juggernaut Golem ~uddoor07.cre~ ~override~ // Skeleton ~wish02.cre~ ~override~ // Djinni ~wolfdisu.cre~ ~override~ // Dire Wolf ~wolfsu.cre~ ~override~ // Wolf ~wolfwisu.cre~ ~override~ // Winter Wolf ~wolfwwsu.cre~ ~override~ // Winter Wolf ~worgsu.cre~ ~override~ // Worg ~wraithsu.cre~ ~override~ // Wraith ~wyvernsu.cre~ ~override~ // Wyvern ~xvartsu.cre~ ~override~ // Xvart Protector WRITE_LONG 0x14 0x00 BUT_ONLY Link to comment
devSin Posted December 12, 2007 Share Posted December 12, 2007 From memory: COPY_EXISTING ~bearblsu.cre~ ~override~ // Black Bear ~bearbrsu.cre~ ~override~ // Brown Bear ~bearcasu.cre~ ~override~ // Cave Bear ~beargrsu.cre~ ~override~ // Grizzly Bear ~bearposu.cre~ ~override~ // Mountain Bear ~catjagsu.cre~ ~override~ // Panther ~catjagwp.cre~ ~override~ // Panther ~catliosu.cre~ ~override~ // Lion ~catliowp.cre~ ~override~ // Joolon ~dagnoll.cre~ ~override~ // Gnoll ~daumber.cre~ ~override~ // Umber Hulk ~demglasu.cre~ ~override~ // Glabrezu ~dempit.cre~ ~override~ // Pit Fiend ~djinnisu.cre~ ~override~ // Djinni ~dogwasu.cre~ ~override~ // War Dog ~dogwisu.cre~ ~override~ // Rabid Dog ~efreetsu.cre~ ~override~ // Efreeti ~elfirsu.cre~ ~override~ // Fire Elemental ~ettercsu.cre~ ~override~ // Ettercap ~ghastsu.cre~ ~override~ // Skeleton ~gibbersu.cre~ ~override~ // Gibberling ~gnollsu.cre~ ~override~ // Gnoll Elite ~haksu.cre~ ~override~ // Hakeashar ~hobgobsu.cre~ ~override~ // Hobgoblin Elite ~jaguarsu.cre~ ~override~ // Jaguar ~jellmusu.cre~ ~override~ // Mustard Jelly ~koboldsu.cre~ ~override~ // Kobold Commando ~nishrusu.cre~ ~override~ // Nishruu ~nymphsu.cre~ ~override~ // Nymph ~ogregrsu.cre~ ~override~ // Ogre Berserker ~rabbitsu.cre~ ~override~ // Rabbit ~servsu.cre~ ~override~ // Aerial Servant ~shadowsu.cre~ ~override~ // Shadow ~skelwasu.cre~ ~override~ // Skeleton Warrior ~smoundsu.cre~ ~override~ // Shambling Mound ~spidgisu.cre~ ~override~ // Giant Spider ~spidphsu.cre~ ~override~ // Phase Spider ~spidswsu.cre~ ~override~ // Sword Spider ~stalke.cre~ ~override~ // Invisible Stalker ~sumdjinn.cre~ ~override~ // Djinni ~sumefree.cre~ ~override~ // Efreeti ~sumelair.cre~ ~override~ // Lesser Air Elemental ~sumelear.cre~ ~override~ // Lesser Earth Elemental ~sumelfir.cre~ ~override~ // Lesser Fire Elemental ~tomegol1.cre~ ~override~ // Flesh Golem ~tomegol2.cre~ ~override~ // Clay Golem ~tomegol3.cre~ ~override~ // Stone Golem ~tomegol4.cre~ ~override~ // Juggernaut Golem ~wolfdisu.cre~ ~override~ // Dire Wolf ~wolfsu.cre~ ~override~ // Wolf ~wolfwisu.cre~ ~override~ // Winter Wolf ~wolfwwsu.cre~ ~override~ // Winter Wolf ~worgsu.cre~ ~override~ // Worg ~wyvernsu.cre~ ~override~ // Wyvern WRITE_LONG 0x14 0x00 BUT_ONLY I can't remember which winter wolf is real. A lot of them actually shouldn't be gender 6/9 (Barl's poison mist, for instance, which is used elsewhere), and some of them are fine. The final two DA* followers you can buy should have 0 XP. I can't remember if SHADOWSU is the shadow altar's summons or if it's unused. Some of those elementals are probably unused. Link to comment
Nythrun Posted December 13, 2007 Share Posted December 13, 2007 I posted this mostly because I was surprised we weren't regendering more of these, and it's something I never got around to locally. SUMMON_SHADOW -> shadowsu.cre is used by the Shadow Altar and maybe a couple traps. I can't remember which wolf is real either. For those late to the party : Summoning cap doesn't apply to non-allies, so gender changes here may not effect player summons. SUMMONED creatures are checked by some scripts and killed by Death Spell. SUMMONED_DEMON is not checked at all for non-allies. Fixpack will not be zeroing experience carelessly Many of these are unused (e.g. the baslisks, which were going to be for Summon Monster IX that is not implemented - they don't even have animations!) Link to comment
devSin Posted December 13, 2007 Share Posted December 13, 2007 SUMMONED_DEMON is used only for pro.evil (protection from creature type; i.e., using evil to protect from evil!). Which is why non-summoned demons shouldn't ever be gender 9 (Demogorgon's cambion can't ever hurt you if you just cast Protection from Evil!). The winter wolf will be in one of the 2DAs (not used elsewhere); I want to say it's WW, but I don't actually want to look. I too thought that we did this ages ago, and that Cam picked up the stragglers with the "summons no drop items" patch. Link to comment
CamDawg Posted December 13, 2007 Share Posted December 13, 2007 For the lazy (me), if we could break this down into a 'these creatures need their XP set to 0' and a 'these creatures need gender changed to X' lists, it'd be much appreciated. Link to comment
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