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BG1RE - General Notes


jastey

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As most of you surely noticed, the mod was revised for the soon to come v1.1 to remove content that was offending to players.

These changes where not made to "mute one voice", or to end a heated discussion that sometimes lacked objectivity - not at all. Instead, the controversy started a needed and long overdue discussion amongst the mod team.

Romantic Encounters for BG1 is supposed to be a fun mod with little encounters and quests to enjoy, not a distressing or even triggering experience for some. I was way too careless in this regard with this and I want to apologize.

bg1re is also supposed to exclude descriptions of sexual violence in any form. Without judging these fantasies, I am only stating that bg1re is not meant to be a place for them.

Here are the relevant rules for the bg1re mod I posted in the Call for Contributions a while ago:

-The content of the mod will not include [sexual] violence in any form.
-The player has to have the choice of ending whatever happens to the PC in every dialogue state (plus, no telling the PC what (s)he feels / does).
-Since this is BG1, there will be a choice to play this teen-rated if the player choses, however detailed the overall encounter was designed, covering any details in a simple fade-to-black.

 

Rule no.1 was not followed in the first version of this mod. I focussed too much on the fulfillment of free choices for the player, and the possibility to end whatever happens in every dialogue state - ignoring the fact that this is not always sufficient.

 

I cannot stress enough how much the "backstage" discussion with co-modders and others has helped here, and I encourage everyone to speak their mind if they encounter anything they feel uncompfortable with. This is a very sensitive and important topic, and I want to state clearly that it will be treated as such in all future mod versions.

I thank all who contributed to this important discussion, and hope that you will find the coming version(s) enjoyable.

Thank you for your interest in this mod, and we will be happy to read your feedback and comments on it.

 

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I must say I'm a bit disappointed. There are clear warnings and it does seem like you changed such things just because of one rather hostile commenter in another topic.

 

I am for all types of choices as it promotes roleplaying, censoring things never sits well with me. Still if you don't want such things, that's your choice, I'll still enjoy the mod because it's pretty awesome but I felt I must say that I'm disappointed in the censorship. Sorry if it sounds kinda harsh. :(

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So: although Jatsey probably would have made this sort of post anyway, I asked her to do so because I wanted to post about this whole deal but there was no way in hell I was stepping in the other thread (which was, I think, fairly toxic all around).

 

And now I've been avoiding this thread, because I've been warned from three different people it's probably going to get ugly again, but: I did want to say things. Might get ignored, might start a flame war, but that's generally how life goes.

 

 

++ First, it was not just one person who had issue with the content. However, almost all other talk of the content took place either backstage or in PM's. In general, if you want things to change, swearing and screaming about a topic is not the way to go about it. While the issue probably needed to be brought up, it was brought up in one of the worst possible ways for it to be taken seriously, as that's the same tactic used in trolling. When someone feels attacked by something, they are likely to bunker down about the issue. When something is brought up in a way that encourages conversation, people are more likely to be consider other points of view, I think.

 

++ Second, I will say this: I was one of the people who had problems with this content. I myself was raped as a preteen. It's been over a decade, and it's something that's still with me and haunts me. When I submitted my work (which, admittedly, isn't much- a rather crappy lesbian encounter and some girdle content for the EE kids), I had been 'told' by the submission rules that there would be no sexual violence. I was counting on that. To have my work put in with an unambiguous rape encounter (which was not clearly warned in the slightest: the warning was basically 'nothing heavy handed' while the character was threatened by a gang rape (which people defended as 'not rape', which is scary in many different ways)) that gave me a panic attack the first time I read it was not very pleasant.

 

(This is where, I need to point out, that avoiding rape in media is hard. In BG2, Phaere can rape the male protagonist. Viconia, although she never mentions it as such, was raped by the Calashite she was forced to trade sexual favors for, and likely was raped again when she talks about how she was treated after it was found out that she was drow. In Bioware's Dragon Age (spoilers!), the city elf's cousin is raped in the City Elf background (and the female city elf is threatened with it, as well as both the female and male city elf's being set for arranged marriages with accustomed duties whether they approve or not), if the player plays any other Origin said (no longer) cousin and likely quite a few other elven females are raped, the player finds out that all dark spawn are born of rape, sees a character having deliberately set her family up to being raped (and watches one victim throw herself off a cliff to suicide to suicide), can badger a male companion in to sleeping with someone they clearly have no desire for, and Zev, Isabella, and Fenris all have rape in their backgrounds (and Lei might- the writing is ambiguous there)). That's a goddamn lot of rape. But- it being a video game- I could read about this beforehand. There are sites set up to basically 'warn' about triggering material in media for people who have trauma (hell, do spiders terrify you?- there are places out there to tell you if spiders are in the game, and if they are, mods that can be used to get around them). There aren't ones for mods: you have to desperately hope that proper warnings have been given, which they weren't in BGRE and they aren't in BG2RE (where you can also basically stumble across a rape with no warning), and cross your fingers.)

 

++ Third, aside from the emotional issues of this ('I was told my writing was not going to be packaged with sexual violence, and I don't want my writing to be associated with sexual violence')... for me, there's also the professional issues. Do you guys know the recent issue with sodomquake? Look it up, and you'll find a blank livejournal, a deleted tumblr and archive of our own account, and a twitter that hasn't been touched in years. She wrote a rather influential Persona 4 fanfiction that dealt with a character entering a sexual relationship with the main villain (who is, surprise, an attempted rapist), the sexual abuse that happened (if not detailed), and the character's recovery that was actually quite good- nothing was every fetishized, and it was actually helpful for a lot of people who had went through similar situations. She also wrote an episode for Welcome to Night Vale, which is some podcast thing I know basically nothing about but has nothing to do with Persona 4 subject. Both were under completely different names. That didn't stop someone from connecting her, a bunch of screaming about someone writing 'rape fics' (although her fiction really was beyond that) being involved in writing for said podcast, and her eventually getting doxxed: as in her name, address, phone number, work was all published. As far as I'm aware, she ended up losing her job and suffering some major real life problems.

 

Why do I speak of this? Because I work with kids, and in this lovely USA, it's perfectly legal for my employer (as well as a prospective one) to do internet background searches. Twani is not anywhere close to my real name, but I've mentioned my real first name (which is very rare) on this website, and my fanfiction account mentions both my real life nickname and Twani. And unfortunately, the lawyer I work with was able to easily track me to this board, which led to some awkward questions.

 

++ Fourth. 'Censoring'. 'White knighting'. Both are terms that got thrown around a lot in the other thread. But is it truly censoring to go 'I made rules for this, this doesn't follow the rules, this needs to change'? There are other uncomfortable things in the mod: some of the girdle of gender bending comments and jokes are might be problematic, although I wouldn't call any of them outright transphobic (though I am not trans, and thus not really in a position to judge). If, though, someone in a better position than I to judge that looked at a component I in particular wrote and said 'God, that's really offensive, because (reasons!)', I myself would probably go 'Oh, hell, I didn't realize it could be taken that way' and ask Jatsey if I could reword it, I would hope I would be granted permission, and I wouldn't consider it censoring myself. Making the world better for another person, in which they can play something and enjoy it and not have to deal with the Giant Sword of Issue that certainly haunts my life makes me feel happy, personally. And, let's just add again: sexual violence was against the rules that we all agreed to when we submitted.

 

White Knighting is an even uglier accusation. Do I think Glam went about his thread the wrong way? Yeah. Had he started a 'Hey, this encounter is rape, is not warned about, and you said there wouldn't be rape in this mod' thread, I think things would have been as lot better and less obnoxious. But White Knighting? Type that in to google, take a good look at the urban dictionary and other definitions you get. It's basically when a man champions a female in a protective manner, often putting her on a pedestal, while at the same time generally making the assumption that she is too weak/frail/pedestal mary sue to talk for herself. To start, there was no female in the thread that was being championed in such a manner... it's also implying something really ugly. That, because Glam is, you know, a guy, HE can't be outraged by rape. The only reason a guy would go on about rape being wrong and inappropriate is if he's doing it defend a girl.

 

That? That's not cool. It ignores the amount of guy's who have been raped. It ignores the amount of guy's whose sisters, mothers, daughters, wives, friends, hell, coworkers and acquaintances have been raped. And it ignores that someone can find something abhorrent without having experienced it and question it's inclusion.

 

 

I don't want to feed a flame war. But you know what? Some of what's been said, has been, well, toxic. And, in general? You can sit and go 'It's the internet, it's like that'. But in general, I've found it's better to call that out as 'that isn't cool' then to sit silently feeling offended and just waiting till it eventually blows up in some screaming match in some completely other thread (which is what tends to happen when you bottle things up). Do I mean to offend anyone? No. I don't want to do that. But I don't want to be silent and let things pass as though nothing ever happened, either.

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I appreciate your post as it's well thought out and written. Thank you for sharing that. I'm not going to get real deep here as when I do I tend to ramble on eternally. I guess I just like my roleplaying options to mirror real situations. The world is ugly, even fantasy worlds. DnD especially is a very ugly world with very ugly people. I tend to balk when people avoid such things in their games or their mods (not all mods, some mods have no need for such things at all). It's just a reaction I have, personally I'm just tired of bubbly, politically correct, afraid to offend anyone games and mods. I am an adult Woman and I want adult material in mods that advertise them. Even if it is something as uncomfortable as rape or murder or threats of such things. It is immersive for me because I know there are people like that.

 

I'm having a tough time getting my point across. I'm not bashing or anything like that, I love the mods here and this one is especially good with very well-written material. I do sympathize with those who have certain "triggers" and I believe a CLEAR warning should be enough.

 

Getting back to the point, if the original author has no issues tweaking the content of the Dirty Guard Encounter, then I nor anyone else can really say much about it. It is their baby after all and they have the right to do whatever they want with it. Personally I didn't see the Dirty Guard Encounter as rape, I took it as a low-level guard trying to flex his muscles and sound threatening when the player character completely turned it around on him. She made him think he was in control of the situation while getting something she wants. That's powerful to me and really struck a cord.

 

Overall it's not a major issue for me personally, the change, it's just how it came about. I do appreciate the sensitivity the authors of this mod showed in changing offensive materia for people, I just can't appreciate it for myself as I feel I'm losing something for the sake of others. Perhaps it's selfish, but that's just how I feel.

 

Finally I will say thank you for this mod and the many other mods on this site. These people are insanely talented and I feel the BG/BG2 modding community produces the best mods for a game I've ever seen. I say this because I don't want you to think me ungrateful or hateful towards people with my comments because I'm not, I have the utmost repect for the people who create these experiences.

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Excellent posts. I wanted to write because I am of two minds about the entire issue and it brings up a couple of questions. Like Twani, I come from a real rape background. That said, I have never personally had memories, etc., "triggered" by computer games. I can see someone really being bothered by adult material in the "immersion" games like Skyrim, but Baldur's Gate has always struck me as being somehow "safer"--more like reading a fantasy book and imagining what's going on in your mind rather than seeing it on the screen.

 

I played the DG encounter. I was not personally offended, although, being essentially still somewhat of a "beta", I thought at the time that the encounter needed tweaking to make it more obvious that it was intended as a "safe" place for certain individuals to play out a pretend scenario of Bad Cop/Arrest Subject. The whole issue of "forced encounter" could have been avoided by making the guard's initial choices to the player character more flexible. You get punished, but have your choice of punishment and are more or less warned about what each entails. The player always has gold in the game--even initially--so a pay-off might have been one way to get some players an obvious "escape" while not making someone else give up what they enjoy. The encounter CAN be played as a kind of consensual game between the guard and the arrested player with each playing a role. Contessa has a very valid point when she describes feeling cheated--losing something fun--because someone else didn't see the escape route. It almost makes one want to have two versions available...

 

My questions: Twani above mentions sexual violence being present in the backgrounds of NPC's. I interpreted her comments as a way of comparing the current debate over BG1RE (No depictions of sexual violence) with the earlier presence of sexual violence in BG2RE and the depictions of the personal history of various NPC's. (Which brought to mind the opening of BG2... Even the player character might have been subjected to sexual violence at the hands of Irenicus...). Do we to modify how we present certain situations now despite what has gone before?

 

Prospective modders like myself probably might like a heads-up on what can be included in the background and plot material ("lovetalks") of an NPC. Guidelines for presenting unpleasant background and intimacy? If I can ever get my mod off the ground, I'd like to feel comfortable with what has been written. I had been using Kivan as a model of more or less how to present "dark" material, but now I'm not sure. He describes the rape/murder of Deheriana to the player character in the course of their "therapeutic" talks that are vivid and, at times, fairly explicit. Is that no longer on the table for the writing of an acceptable mod? Glam himself gave his NPC Vynd a personal history of continual sexual harassment, if not coerced sex. In short, what are the lines for presentation of material?

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Prospective modders like myself probably might like a heads-up on what can be included in the background and plot material ("lovetalks") of an NPC. Guidelines for presenting unpleasant background and intimacy?

 

I am reminded now of the old arguments in fanfic-land about trigger-warnings in the headers of stories. (In general, people will put them in now, or at the least indicate if the bulk of the story is going to be dark.) And working out some general standards for 'edgy' material would be a useful, if difficult, discussion.

 

Um. Going to fanfic standards as a base to start from... the mega-archive AO3 has some standard warnings in its tag-set: 'Graphic Depictions of Violence', 'Major Character Death', 'Rape/Non-Con', 'Underage [sexual activities]'. (It gives the option to ignore these warnings, but that affects how the search engine will pull the stories.) Other warnings and notes that are likely to appear are 'Dubious Consent', 'Implied/Referenced [something problematic]', 'Aftermath of [something problematic]', 'Mental Health Issues', 'Canon-Typical Violence', 'Canon-Typical [something problematic]', 'Discussion of [something problematic], some idea of the romantic relationship or lack of same... And authors might note that, say, Chapter 3 has a lot of X and-if-that-isn't-your-bag-you-can-skip-to-Chapter-4-without-losing-too-much-plot.

 

Sometimes people write 'edgy' because it's intense, like a really hot curry, or they can pack in a lot of flavour with the edgy (also like curry). Sometimes it's... therapeutic? (There is a shadow genre of fanfic where an established fictional character is written as dealing with an RL issue, could be OCD or chronic pain or a non-respected sexual orientation (or left-handedness), and every one of them has a comment section full of people saying we're not alone...)

 

Sometimes 'edgy' gets written because it's the only way to tell a particular story. If Kivan did not talk about Deheriana, ever, his mod would have been really weird.

 

I may be blathering here. I personally find it easier to cope with dark material if I have a reasonable idea that it's coming and what its limits are - just an author's note can help, or tell me that said content is not for me and it's time to move on with no hard feelings.

 

**

 

One thing I really like about the BG1RE mod is the filtering system. Right now you can press one or two keys at install to avoid anything but teenagery stuff, or ramp things up. The way it's implemented, it is very easy to filter by individual dialogue lines. I suspect, if I ever get a mod of my own off the ground, that I'll be using a similar system to let players put potentially triggery material behind a veil.

 

So... yeah. I'm not exactly Old Guard here: take my opinions with a healthy pinch of salt.

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This discussion is very interesting, but participating for me is difficult as I already showed I lack sensibility to detect all potential triggers and tend to write rape fantasies myself.

 

This is a very good warning phrase, imho: "'Canon-Typical [something problematic]'" - especially if thinking about the (BGII) RE Solaufein component, which is, by our standards, a rape fantasy, but it is enclosed in the canon-typical drow society. For me (without a backstory of experienced violence), this is a difference than compared to a story about the same situation in, say, LA in 2010.

For me, the difficulty is to understand that a person with traumatic experiences cannot see this difference, and to put appropriate warnings to my mod(s). I do not think that I have to refrain myself from writing it, though - especially considering a mod figuring a drow, how would one write a male drow without hints and remarks about coerced sexual experiences in his past?

 

So, it probably boils down to how it is presented (I do not enjoy detailed descriptions. Kivan is way to detailed for my taste) - and an appropriate warning. And maybe the possibility to skip some content, if it makes sense, like we do it for bg1re.

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You're being too hard on yourself, Jastey. No one can anticipate everything. I mean, Coran in the NPC expansion always strikes me as a hairs breadth away from sexual harassment of the PC player. Players must assume some risk when they choose to add mod material to a game.

 

I like the idea of content labels. I would dearly love to know how to code an interaction to allow for the player to choose a level... My NPC, for example, has a problematic history and I'd like to code it from the outset so that teens can play it getting kind of an overview without details whereas an adult might read a less expurgated version. I'm a good writer, but very new at coding.

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I'd like to code it from the outset so that teens can play it getting kind of an overview without details whereas an adult might read a less expurgated version

 

As far as I can figure out the magic Jastey worked in the set-up, BG1RE has two stages of filtering. One uses marker-files and REQUIRE_FILE to load or not-load specific components by their rating (which you're probably not interested in).

 

The other sets two Global variables - one for teen-vs-mature, the other for prose-description. I wrote up how to use that in .d coding, but it seemed to be hijacking this thread, so have a link to a v. short tutorial http://gibberlings3.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=26948 instead.

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