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One-handed spears, bows with bucklers etc.


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#1 temnix

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Posted 10 December 2016 - 06:11 AM

You know, I've never liked it that AD&D doesn't pay enough respect to spears. They were really the most common weapon in any period. The game was always biased towards long swords... but I do regret not seeing enough people with shields and spears on the covers of game books or in the IE games. Now halberds are something else, I don't recall any historical images where a soldier carries a halberd with a shield, maybe because it was a late weapon and shields were already on the way out. But spears and shields? Sure. The hoplite, the Roman legionary (though mostly for throwing), any number of cavalrymen...

 

Spears are just an example. So, does any mod diversify the default IE weapon setups to allow, for example, one-handed spears or two-handed flails? Or, obviously, battle axes, which should have been two-handed to begin with - you really can't swing a large axe with one hand with any force.

 

I made a couple of custom ones for myself. Here is my character with a two-handed morning star (it's too bad the animation is the same as for a mace, it would look more impressive), and here is Kagain with his big scimitar. Also Dorn with a shield and a spear and my character again carrying a buckler with a bow (which was a very common combination for archers). The buckler disappears when he fires the bow, but otherwise it only clashes with the arm animation in on arm position, and then slightly. Larger shields clash big time, but bucklers are good.

 

Baldr001.jpg

 

Baldr006.jpg

 

Baldr3451.jpg

 

Baldrdfds8.jpg

 



#2 subtledoctor

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Posted 10 December 2016 - 09:40 AM

Whaaaat? Do you have a full working 2-handed mace/morning star animation? I've long wanted to turn morning stars into 2-handed weapons. Like so:
https://m.youtube.co...h?v=ZOKN4V9nZzM

I can make it happen as a technical matter, via Weidu, the only thing holding me back has been the lack of a way for it to be animated in-game.

Some of the games (definitely the EEs) have a 'javelin' animation that people have used for thrown spears. I think if you mess with the weapon range, that can be used for 1-handed spears in melee.

Other mods add 2-handed axes, but there is no animation so they look like halberds. It's close enough, IMHO.

One big issue here is, you have to make sure the animation works not just with player races, but any monsters who use weapons. Orcs, orogs, ogres, etc. Put a 2-handed weapon in the wrong hands and it crashes the game. Some .cre files can just be universally patched (I have Weidu code somewhere that can remove shields from any .cre files that you want to give a conflicting 2-hand animation); you can also use the Tweaks Anthology method to allow weapons to be switched from
1-handed to 2-handed use.

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#3 temnix

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Posted 10 December 2016 - 05:38 PM

I have a two-handed dagger animation, too, for those who want it. Some mighty swings there. :D

 

Axes, morning stars (maces) and scimitars already work two-handed, as do one-handed spears. You just need to put the right flags in properties. Here is a spear equipped with a shield:

Baldr009.jpg

 

Characters run about with these weapons in one hand, but heft and swing them with two. It's hard to make a good screenshot in action, but it works. And here is Kagain in the middle of a swing with a mace, two-handed:

 

Baldr007.jpg

 

I tried putting the weapons I made two-handed in ogres' hands, but animations stay the same. An ogre comes drawn with a morning star, no matter what you give him. But the weapons don't crash the game either. I made an ogre equip a regular spear, and nothing happened.

 

I don't mean you personally this time, but I'm getting tired of assumptions...


Edited by temnix, 10 December 2016 - 05:40 PM.


#4 temnix

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Posted 10 December 2016 - 06:24 PM

Some more. Crossbows with shields. Unlike bows, they don't clash with the arm animation. Nothing new about weapon animations here, it's the same two-handed shot, and the shield temporarily disappears, but they are compatible.

 

Baldr004 - Copy.jpg

 

Baldr0rewrwerew01.jpg

 

Edit: Oops. I can post a picture of a two-handed sword with a shield, too, but now that I've squinted at the gameplay, I realize that the animations are only partial. The hefting and wielding are there, but the weapon disappears on the stroke. Sorry for the false brouhaha. It's really not obvious, though, for smaller weapons. At this distance, especially if there is a blood squirt... it took me a while to see that the spear isn't actually there on the way in. Anyway, somebody might want to have a look into the BAM files. Since the mechanics don't prevent the change of hands the hard way, it might be possible to edit the animations or copy the ones from the bastard sword, for example, just for the stroke.

 

Maybe I should still post a movie of how this looks in the game.


Edited by temnix, 10 December 2016 - 06:47 PM.


#5 Fiann of the Silver Hand

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Posted 10 December 2016 - 08:51 PM

There's what's realistic.  Then there's what's fun.  Finally, there's what the IE does well (if at all).  All of these systems are trying to account for those restrictions, guided by the modder's underlying biases.

 

If you get hand xbows working, though, I'll donate to your Patreon.


Edited by Fiann of the Silver Hand, 11 December 2016 - 03:55 AM.


#6 temnix

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Posted 11 December 2016 - 09:28 AM

You can donate to my Patron on high.  :tut:  Light crossbows already work, that's the easy change. But I was wrong about the animation - the shields stay on when the crossbow is fired! That's way cool. You can keep an off-hand weapon equipped, but it's not shown or used until you switch to a melee weapon for the main hand.

 

Here is the video:

https://youtu.be/tA7NtwKtprA

 

And I modded all of the light crossbows in BGEE and SoD (I think) to be one-handed.

 

Download



#7 subtledoctor

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Posted 11 December 2016 - 10:49 AM

As a technical matter, did you just check/uncheck the "two-handed" flag in the .itm files?

Funny, I guess I just assumed that would never work. :p

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#8 temnix

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Posted 11 December 2016 - 11:35 AM

- Yes. -

 

P.S. If people request it, I can edit the bows the same way. They do clash with shield animations, and the shield disappears when the string is pulled, but this would make a switch to a dual-weapon setup much easier. Just carry the second weapon in the off-hand slot, shoot the bow, then click on the main melee weapon and voila, two weapons ready to use.

 

And here is the video of people attacking Dorn with half-real weapons - spears in one hand and axes in two.

https://youtu.be/qSa1JBDvuQs


Edited by temnix, 11 December 2016 - 11:41 AM.


#9 Fiann of the Silver Hand

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Posted 11 December 2016 - 10:09 PM

Neat.  Do you still suffer the AC penalty if you're attacked in melee range?



#10 Jarno Mikkola

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Posted 12 December 2016 - 05:07 AM

Do you still suffer the AC penalty if you're attacked in melee range?

Very likely that, and take the +4 damage when wearing a ranged weapon against opponent in melee. Aka it's a -4 to luck.

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#11 subtledoctor

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Posted 12 December 2016 - 08:15 AM

I don't love the way the axe disappears - the blade is big enough to make it really noticeable. Seems like using the halberd animation and just setting it to 'overhand swing' 100% is a better compromise.

Anyway that's already added by a mod, and another mod adds real 1-handed spears and thrown spears. So those two weapons aren't a priority IMHO. On the other hand, it would be great to do this for morning stars. And 2-handed katana use would be cool too.

How do 2-handed morning stars and scimitars look? Do they suffer from the same issue?

Edited by subtledoctor, 12 December 2016 - 08:17 AM.

Faiths & Powers: Spell spheres and kit pack for priests and paladins
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#12 temnix

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Posted 12 December 2016 - 09:41 AM

Yes, it's the same problem. The actual strike animations for the weapons aren't there. People might be able to edit/transpose existent ones, but it's still a lot of work. Though 2000 frames is probably not 2000 different pictures, or we know Bioware artists' fan mail address - the nuthouse.

 

Which mod adds one-handed spears?

 

(I wish someone made spears longer.)

 

Swiss-Pikemen1.jpg

 

About penalty with bows: assumptions again. If you have a bow/crossbow equipped and in hand, so it shows as the animation, then of course you're going to suffer the usual ranged weapon penalty to AC etc., in melee. On the other hand, if you have a bow/crossbow equipped but not in hand, instead using a melee weapon, I don't see a reason why the bow/crossbow would apply a penalty. The off-hand weapon that is equipped, like a dagger, doesn't show up and doesn't strike while the bow/crossbow is held, it doesn't exist for all purposes. I tested this by adding a constant "While equipped" glow to a dagger, which I had Dorn carry in his left hand, while he had the modified Crossbow of Speed in his right. The glow did not shine when he wielded the crossbow, but it shone when he switched to the melee setup. Vice versa, the ranged-weapon penalty to AC should not apply while the bow/crossbow is merely equipped but not actually held.

 

In other words, click on the mace when they get close, but otherwise you're fine.


Edited by temnix, 12 December 2016 - 09:51 AM.


#13 Fiann of the Silver Hand

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Posted 12 December 2016 - 11:22 PM

"long spear" = pike



#14 temnix

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Posted 13 December 2016 - 08:03 AM

same difference, period


Edited by temnix, 13 December 2016 - 09:57 AM.


#15 WarChiefZeke

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Posted 23 December 2016 - 11:27 AM

So how do you make it so they hold a two hander in one hand, but swing it with two? Just disabling the two handed flag in near infinity made spears use one handed animations which causes it to vanish when swung. Which is actually really cool, because the weapon in question is a returning javelin and when coupled with the spear projectile animation really makes it look as though it is being thrown and leaves the users hand, hits the target and returns. 

 

Which brings me to the next question- is it then possible to have it use one hand animations for it's throwing ability and two handed for it's melee?





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