Female Gnome Avatars

[Mike1072]

Actually, while thinking about it, what Mike originally thought, and what is the easiest to do is to copy over one of the 3 spells into the override under the same generic name, then it's but one scripting block that recast the same spell, but depending on pc's choice it leaves the gfms as dwarves or substitutesto hoods or elves.

That's pretty much what I meant, I just forgot about the third avatar. If the standard installation uses chngavtr.spl when they are resurrected to change them from the default animation to elves, you create a different version of chngavtr.spl that changes them to the hooded ones, and a third one that doesn't change the avatar (this is what I meant by "does nothing", heh).

 

Personally, I'd prefer to see it set up more like what berelinde mentioned, though, with the default install completely skipping this stuff, and all code relating to changing avatars in an optional component. Otherwise, when you don't want to change avatars you'd be going through an unnecessary step:

• player resurrected
  
• apply fix to change their avatar // doesn't accomplish anything as we already are using the right avatar
  
• continue...
  

But that's a little more work to change and I can understand choosing a solution that's easier to implement (and is one you know will work).

 

Back on topic, I'd pick the hooded animation over no change, and no change over the change to elf, but according to the poll, you're not as alone as you think - over 40% of people would prefer the change to elf.

[Kitana]

I'd rather have ANYTHING than bearded, and since you obviously don't want her to have a hood, then elf will do, I suppose...

[berelinde]

Using the subcomponent function, it's possible to make everyone happy. Would that be so bad?

[Domi]

No, it wouldn't, I just wanted to avoid optionizing in the mod altogether. (Shrug.) Anyway, I guess, I'll do it at some point.

[berelinde]

Nothing pressing, but if you decide at some point that you might want to have installable alternate portraits, you're going to probably have components for that, so then it becomes a matter of "What the heck, it's just enter a number, 1,2, or 3."

[Domi]

I was planning to have one set of portraits as default (MrsCake's), and drop the second one in the portrait folder (NWN2), as opposite to optionizing.

 

The non-optionizing was peffereable to me, because I wanted the mod to always be taken as a whole.

[Miloch]

The female gnome mage is "f'd up" as you say. I'd almost consider it a bug, due to the fact none of the other female gnome avatars use the dwarf male animations. Gnome women are not dwarves (whether male or female dwarves). But... gnomes are not elves either, not by a long chalk. Unless you're Tolkien before he got his terms straight and translated 'Noldo' to 'Gnome' but we won't go there.

My problem with using halflings avatars: they are distinctively halfling, with huge arms and feet, and they do not have mages' animations for cloaks etc, which the elven ones do.

 

Height-wise gnomes are between elves and halflings, and according to my Player Handbook, page 13, there is nothing short and stocky about them. They are simply smaller version of the elves, with wider faces from that drawing; not at all like the dwarves, who are indeed noticeably stocky.

 

The other problem is that hooded halfling avatar does not show her hair color which is reffered to a number of times in the mod.

Eh... which edition is that? Must be different from my 2nd edition PHB, which has a glossary on that page and doesn't really detail a whole lot about racial descriptions.

 

Races of Faerun though, does.

Rock gnomes are the gnomes that most people are familiar with, so much so that when someone says "a gnome," he or she is almost always speaking of a rock gnome.

 

Rock gnomes average between 3 and 3 1/2 feet tall and weigh between 40 and 45 pounds. Their skin comes in many different shades of brown, but is unaffected by exposure to the sun. The hair of young gnomes can vary greatly in color, but in adulthood the all tend toward gray or white. The males wear their beards neatly trimmed.

The 2e Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting says the following:

They are smaller and less stocky than dwarves, and are thought to be distant relatives of dwarves (though only gnomish men have beards).

So in size and weight (if not hair/skin colour, which is moddable on avatars) they are far closer to halflings than elves. Other sources (Dragon #262 "Gnomes and Halflings" and the Complete Book of Gnomes & Halflings] link the two races both by appearance and names.

 

If I'm quoting a lot, it's because I'm doing my own research to revise my mini-mod for shorties. Why should I care about the short folk? So I don't step on 'em during my barbarian, thieving rampages. Nothing like getting gnome on the underside of your orcish boot. The stuff never comes off...

 

Aside from "large hands and feet" (and I see gnomes as not being a whole lot different from halflings in this regard), if your main problem with the thief avatar is the hoods, maybe the BG2 Tweak component to remove them could be adapted to IWD? Though I haven't really messed with that component... might be in some other mod entirely. The problem with what you're asking about resizing the elf avatars to be gnomes (aside from the fact gnomes don't look like elves, even proportionally "downsized" ) is that you'd have to do it for every single frame of every relevant animation, and then make sure it's anti-aliased or otherwise undistorted, which would probably involve a lot of tedious pixel editing. Almost be less work to design new avatars from scratch (and no, I'm not volunteering to do that... not that I'm even capable of it ). [Eh, you say most of this in your later post... I'll admit I'm lazy and don't always read full multi-page threads, particularly when G3 doesn't notify me... ]

 

The female "halfling" (which is actually the generic female gnome/halfling avatar for *most* classes, at least in BG1/2) is your best bet. I don't think she looks "muscular" - she's just short, as she should be, not like some miniaturised elf.

It seems that both gnome/halfling-looking Peony and elven-looking Peony are popular.

I'm wondering... who else is voting for the elf-looking gnome in this thread, apart from Domi and one or two others? Unless Domi has some sort of multi-vote override, like the Republicans in US elections [heh... good thing this isn't PPG...]. I think perhaps an option people are missing in this poll is to use the short/unbearded/female avatar (i.e. generic halfling/gnome). Whether it be the thief or cleric is your call. I prefer the thief, since I view most mages as having hoods, and they obviously have less armour than clerics or fighters (and I think IWD's own female gnome portrait has a beardless hooded gnome woman, though I could be wrong).

[Gorilym]

I voted for the elf avatar. Is it ideal? No. Is it better than the alternatives? Yes.

 

Seeing as there's currently a 50/50 split, going with avatar subcomponents seems reasonable.

[berelinde]

Or maybe Miloch could be persuaded to make an IWD2 version of his Gnomes mod, and the entire question would become academic.

[Domi]

I really don't want to argue about it. I will include the option. For some people like me, having the mage-appropriate animations and the set of actually decently made female avatars maybe more important than the height alone, for most people it's the height. And no, I didn't rig the poll.

 

Miloch, I use 3rd Edition book, and it has this picture (see below), not to mention that NWN2 Gnome avatars look petite and slim, rather than short and stocky; they might have slightly improportionally big head, but they are definetly proportional otherwise, not squat. Yeah, WoC contradicts themselves (what's new?), but everyone picks whichever version is better suited for his or her tastes. And my personal preference is to go with 3rd Edition and NWN2. I don't see the point of arguing about the generic Halfling avatar - if you don't think she's overly muscular, and ugly, well, I do.

 

As for resizing the elven ones, I was mistakingly under the impression that one can just take each frame and resize it to fit the halflings in height, but I guess because of that weapon thing it is impossible. Oh, well, here goes that hope.

 

http://members.shaw.ca/domi/Races.JPG

[Miloch]

Or maybe Miloch could be persuaded to make an IWD2 version of his Gnomes mod, and the entire question would become academic.

Well, Gnomes isn't messing with other people's NPCs anyway. If it was, it'd just assign the thief_female_gnome avatar for this one, as it does for the other bearded female gnome mages. Many are already set correctly (within the confines of the engine's existing animations), such as Finch. But she's a cleric, so she doesn't get shafted like the mages.

 

My point about the poll is that it reflects a false slant due to having to choose between a male dwarf and female elf avatar. Many here would've voted for a third choice (gnome female avatar) had it been available.

Miloch, I use 3rd Edition book, and it has this picture (see below) http://members.shaw.ca/domi/Races.JPG

Ugh. Not exactly a fashion show. They couldn't even get the human female proportionally correct. And that half-orc is uglier than me. And what's with the transvestite half-elf?

 

FWIW, the gnome and halfling are pretty close on that drawing (not that I agree with either representation).

 

Question though: if you're changing your gnome NPC to look like an elf, will you be doing the same for other gnomes in the game? Or is this not really an issue for IWD2?

[Domi]

Not really an issue in the game. The only other female gnome is a tiny little girl, which uses 'girl' animation. So, that's why the question about PC is valid, because it will be unfair to the female PC to look like a male dwarf when Peony walks around with a female avatar. So I'd just replace those two.

 

Many here would've voted for a third choice (gnome female avatar) had it been available.

 

Yes, but you see, I think it would have scewed the poll even more, because if I have never seen the avatars, I'd click that one too, wondering what the hell the problem was and ignoring the fact that it's _NOT_ Gnome, but Halfling animation, and it does not have mage sequences. At that time, I didn't want to go and do snapshots of all the avatars and write tomes on the appropriateness of each.

[Guest Lord Balor]

The height of the elf would take something away from playing as a gnome, but the bald head and beard always put me off playing as a female gnome (I once started the game with 3 gnome mages in a party, I got bored before the horde fortress, but the point is; not one of them was a female simply because the avatar didn't fit).

[berelinde]

I just bristle at the idea that a gnome can only be beautiful if she looks like a miniature elf. My own impression of gnomes is a lot stockier.

 

But yeah, Miloch, I see what you mean about the whole skewed proportions thing (I mean, really! That half-orc's bra is just about under her armpits, which says *loads* about how much the artist knew about about female anatomy), and about the strangely androgynous half-elf (ibid).

 

Besides, BioWare was bad enough, where only the romanceable females all had elven avatars. Here, they all would have them, every single one! With the one, it's a necessity, because the human male bearded avatar would be unsuitable for a number of reasons. With two of the others, it's only natural, because they're elven or half-elven. But four out of four looking like elves...

 

Anyway, this whole thing is really about standards of beauty, and they vary by user, fortunately, or this poor, half-orcish looking lady would be awfully lonely.

 

Fortunately, Domi has suggested that she'll make both options available at some point, so I'm keeping my fingers crossed.

 

By the way, all this talk of equating female muscularity with ugliness makes me rather uncomfortable. Can we accept that not everyone shares that perception and move on to something less sensitive?

[Domi]

I am sorry it upsets you. Well, I guess everyone imagines fantasy races different. I have to say that I always thought that small races were all different: dwarves - stocky, halflings - inclined to plumpiness and gnomes - thin and fragile. I just don't see why small race should neceserily equate stout. Mind you, I did not grow up watching the Snowhite or having gnomes as a part of the folklore, so I pretty much did not have any set idea on what the gnomes are when I started playing BG.

 

Here, they all would have them, every single one! With the one, it's a necessity, because the human male bearded avatar would be unsuitable for a number of reasons. With two of the others, it's only natural, because they're elven or half-elven. But four out of four looking like elves...

 

I am not sure what you are talking about here. Besides, you are suggesting that all three small races looked the same, ie used the same avatar if I understand you correctly, so how much better is that in terms of generalization? At least on that picture, dwarves look different than Halflings and Gnomes, though I am quite in agreement that Halflings should look different as well. But I am guessing that the Halflings looking nothing like Tolkien's Halflings is the nod to Tolkien's heirs so they don't sue.