Summoning Spells for V4

[aVENGER_(RR)]

I didn't want to suggest it because smilodons only exist in pre-historic settings, and also because real species were actually inferior to contemporary great cats. However, now that aVENGER added them to his PnP Animals document, I suppose we may do the same then.

 

It's the same for Spotted Lions yet Bioware chose to include them in the original game (specifically, in Umar Hills).

 

That said, even though both animals lived during the Pleistocene epoch, their PnP entries also state that it's possible to occasionally encounter them in present day locations (on Faerun) which does give us some leeway.

[Shaitan]

What about those snake creatures used in IWD2? Don't remember their names. I think both Sikret (in IA) and Lava (in white queen) uses them.

[Demivrgvs]

Animal Summoning V

@DemiYou forgot to type the answer

Oh my, it's becoming a trend. Anyway, I just wanted to say that making snakes immune to poison seems fine but not necessary to make them appealing, and for some reason it seems more of a stretch from PnP.

 

@Ardanis, now that aTweaks PnP creatures will probably become a standard install for most players I feel slightly less free to diverge from PnP when it comes to standard creatures. What do you think of this matter?

 

Animal Summoning VII

We have sabertooth tiger as 7HD. If we use panther on 4th level, there will probably no same-looking animals in the entire AS family.

Well, even using leopards, cave bears and polar bears we would have no same-looking animals (assuming polar bear animation is white, is it?). Concept wise the only "advantage" of the smilodon is that it has the 7HD value I was looking for (instead of polar bear's 8HD), but both solutions don't offer a truly unique summon with unique abilities (polar bears are just tougher cave bears, smilodons are just tougher leopards/panthers), thus neither of them is clearly more appealing imo.

 

Well, except dogs/wolves maybe.

?!? I'm not at home to check it but I'm almost sure dogs and wolves don't share the animation, am I wrong?

 

I didn't want to suggest it because smilodons only exist in pre-historic settings, and also because real species were actually inferior to contemporary great cats. However, now that aVENGER added them to his PnP Animals document, I suppose we may do the same then.

I really don't like to make AS spells summons pre-historic animals and dinosaurs. Actually I could try to convince aVENGER not using them too considering PnP AS spells are supposed to "call" animals from areas "near" the caster, not to conjure/summon them from distant worlds.

 

@Shaitan, I don't remember those creatures, but it sounds like they were magical beast or monsters rather than animals, am I wrong?

[Salk]

I really don't like to make AS spells summons pre-historic animals and dinosaurs. Actually I could try to convince aVENGER not using them too considering PnP AS spells are supposed to "call" animals from areas "near" the caster, not to conjure/summon them from distant worlds.

 

I am with Demi here.

 

I'd rather have no pre-historic animals in aTweaks either but at the same time I would like to have full compatibility between SR and aTweaks because I intend to play with both modifications.

[aVENGER_(RR)]

I'd rather have no pre-historic animals in aTweaks either but at the same time I would like to have full compatibility between SR and aTweaks because I intend to play with both modifications.

 

The thing is, regular animals are very weak compared to their prehistoric counterparts, as Ardanis already pointed out. Most animals that we can use (i.e. those whose animations are available in BG2) are not suitable for the PnP Animal Summoning spells in terms of Hit Dice.

 

Also, contrary to the real world, the animals that we label as "prehistoric" actually do exist in present day Faerun, even though they are very rare. If we wanted to be really strict in terms of real-life adherence, we'd have to remove the Dire Wolf and the Cave Bear too as they also represent prehistoric ancestors of the modern species.

[Demivrgvs]

I'd rather have no pre-historic animals in aTweaks either but at the same time I would like to have full compatibility between SR and aTweaks because I intend to play with both modifications.

The thing is, regular animals are very weak compared to their prehistoric counterparts, as Ardanis already pointed out. Most animals that we can use (i.e. those whose animations are available in BG2) are not suitable for the PnP Animal Summoning spells in terms of Hit Dice.

Well, that's not completely true. when it comes to PnP ASIII you could opt for 8x 8HD animals (aka polar bears) and still be true to PnP. Am I wrong?

 

Also, contrary to the real world, the animals that we label as "prehistoric" actually do exist in present day Faerun, even though they are very rare.

Maybe, but not anywhere near the Sword Coast. Perhaps Chult or similar places.

 

If we wanted to be really strict in terms of real-life adherence, we'd have to remove the Dire Wolf and the Cave Bear too as they also represent prehistoric ancestors of the modern species.

The "dire" thing is just a template. You can have a rat, a giant rat, or a dire rat (not sure if a giant dire rat would be acceptable). Afaik Cave Bear are just normal bears for D&D, the different name is there only to indicate the power lvl (aka HD amount).

[aVENGER_(RR)]

Well, that's not completely true. when it comes to PnP ASIII you could opt for 8x 8HD animals (aka polar bears) and still be true to PnP. Am I wrong?

 

No, you are right, but without removing the summoning cap that's impossible to achieve. Also, I'd rather have a proper ASIII which summons four 16 HD animals than have it summon eight 8 HD animals and simply be a "mass ASII".

 

The "dire" thing is just a template.

 

In 3E D&D yes, but not in 2E AD&D. The Dire Wolf is specifically listed as an ancestor of the modern wolf species there.

 

Afaik Cave Bear are just normal bears for D&D, the different name is there only to indicate the power lvl (aka HD amount).

 

In real-life the Cave Bear lived during the Pleistocene epoch.

[Incantatar]

MSI: 1HD Gibberlings

MSII: (Kobold Commandos plus Shaman/Witch) --> ?

MSIII: (Hobgoblin Archers plus Captain) --> 3HD Carrion Crawlers

MSIV: (Gnolls plus Flind) --> 4/5/6HD Giant/Phase/Sword Spider

MSV: (Ogre Berserkers plus Magi) --> 5HD Wolfweres or 5HD Ettercaps or 5HD Myconids

MSVI: 6HD Baby Wyverns plus 7HD Wyvern or 6HD Displacer Beasts or 6HD Minotaurs or 6HD Otyughs

MSVII: 7 HD Wyverns

MSVIII: 8HD Umber Hulks (with 10HD Elder Umber Hulk?)

MSIX: 9HD Fire Salamanders (with 12HD Noble Fire Salamander?)

 

This quantity over quality thing sucks imo. Weak monsters with ranged attacks or spells are fine in groups but the flinds and ogres atm and the wyverns and salamanders with your list loose against the quality alternative summons 9/10. I say this with SCSII in mind. I see circumstantial uses but nothing to warrant a permanent spell slot. Perhaps it will be possible to make a selection out of different monsters possible, this would change things and make it more appealing.

[Jarno Mikkola]

BG creatures vs. PnP creatures

.... What do you think?

You didn't tell what other creatures you were considering...

 

One thing I'll let you know... where the unheaven did you find this idea of MSI being a good idea ? (as in level 1 summon spell creating multiple creatures on higher levels).

 

Summoning Cap

Well, why not make the game do as you like... you say you wish to create an army of Gibberlings... make the 3rd level spell cast lots of them... all the way up to 20 at level 25-30... without the summon cap ! If you don't like to be able to summon more than 5 Firesalamanders, you cap them and the creatures you like to cap. And you make sure they can beat up to and forward from 9 uncapped spell conjurations, ouh and give them more staying time... while the uncapped disappear like the wind... or if the capped creatures are intellegent creatures(humanoids) they might deside to go berserk or run away, especially if they see themselves being slaughtered. The cap of 1 creatures should also have the same relationship with the capped once than they have with the uncaped ones. The avatars are far more deadlier than the usual capped summons.

 

MSVII: 7 HD Wyverns

Wyvern Call anyone ? Summon Undead... Animal summoning...Spider Swarm...Gate... Conjured fiends... all should be unique, so have a good side and a bad. But maybe you should be thinking on the level those spells are cast... War dogs on level 3 mage(your MSII) ...no thank, that's too much in BG1 for sure.

But I do like the "summon rats" idea you have for level 1 spell, with the stinking cloud immunity and cumulative +1 Thac0 and perhaps AC bonus in swarm with small radius... As long as the basic creature has low stats... no Thac0 of 15... but 20. You could also make the spell spell progress so that it first summons only 1 rat at level 1. 2 at level 3... etc.

[Incantatar]

Summoning cap is obsolete imo. Ok you could say DavidW needs to put it back on the AI but since he doesn't want to, why disadvantage the player?

[Jarno Mikkola]

Ok you could say DavidW needs to put it back on the AI but since he doesn't want to, why disadvantage the player?

Well, I don't see a system where you could make a good cap to the AI... as the game has 6 player characters, which have a cap of 5... that's 0.8 per a Lich... but a Lich by it's lonesome cannot cast portion of creature ... and the game mechanics don't have a summon cap for the enemy(as in never has and never could have).

The best cure of course is to make the AI cast good spells for it... and you do that by making the summon spells good, on their own aspects... if a 100 goblins aren't good, you summon a dragon... not saying here that they should be able to do either. but that the games mechanics should be used to not limit the players actions, but to prevent the ONE, WIN ALL action.

[DavidW]

Summoning cap is obsolete imo. Ok you could say DavidW needs to put it back on the AI but since he doesn't want to, why disadvantage the player?

 

It wouldn't be a case of putting it back on the AI: the summoning cap was always restricted to the party and ignored by the AI. It's not even very clear how to interpret it for enemies: what is a "party"? I've generally assumed it was there to help keep the CPU cycles under control, not for game-balance reasons.

[Incantatar]

Ahh right, i forgot that.With Vanilla AI this never actually mattered if i think about it.

 

There is another problem with the cap i and others experienced. When summons get imprisoned or mazed and one leaves the area, the summoning cap will be reduced. When i left the Underdark in one playthrough i was only able to summon 2 creatures.

[DrAzTiK]

There is another problem with the cap i and others experienced. When summons get imprisoned or mazed and one leaves the area, the summoning cap will be reduced. When i left the Underdark in one playthrough i was only able to summon 2 creatures.

While we speak about this annoying problem, does someone know how to fix it in a playthrough? (with nearinfinity?)

[Adanedhel]

Maybe with TobEx component "Summon Limit Fix"? IIRC it's supposed to deal with summons remaining in areas you have left and where you can't go back to make them disappear.