Excluding Spells from Bards

[subtledoctor]

Spell exclusion flags at 0x1e

 

Updates on the bitfield (testing BGEE:SoD):

 

bit14 - Exclude Trueclass Mages/Sorcerers/Bards

bit21 - Exclude Blades

bit22 - Exclude Jesters

bit23 - Exclude Skalds

bit31 - Exclude Druids/Rangers/Wildmages

 

Both bit14 and bit31 is shared among different classes with class-specific behavior. i.e. setting bit31 for a priest spell excludes druids/rangers from gaining the spell at level up, while setting the same bit for a wizard spell prevents wildmages from learning the spell via scroll ("Your spell school does not permit you to learn this spell."). Bards receive the same message when attempting to learn the spell via scrolls.

It would be nice if there was a way to exclude bards (all bards) without affecting other arcane casters...

[Avenger]

Yeah, sadly it works only for the bitfield based kits. I think barbarian is there, though. (Yeah, i know they got no spells

[subtledoctor]

I assume this links to the usability flag? So, to make a spell learnable by mages but not bards, I would have to:

- make a new "trueclass" bard kit

- give the new kit the usability flag for Skald or Jester

- edit the K_B_x.2da files to remove the original trueclass and replace it with the new clone

- set the spell to exclude Skalds, Blades, and Jesters

 

?

[Jarno Mikkola]

I

?

Like the Revisions mod did in the HLA component's scroll usage case... well yeah. But may I suggest that, you, just don't do this.

[subtledoctor]

Like the Revisions mod did in the HLA component's scroll usage case... well yeah. But may I suggest that, you, just don't do this.

Why? I'm not talking about cloning 80 kits. Just 1.

 

Actually this is off-topic, sorry to gum up the thread, guys...

[Jarno Mikkola]

Why? I'm not talking about cloning 80 kits. Just 1.

Well, that's where they started too, but the further trouble was, the character was able to dual and multi class. Now, you won't have that problem, but you will get the problem where if there's other custom bard kits. Like what about the Dragon Disciples in the EE games ?

[subtledoctor]

Step 1: patch all bard kits to share the Jester usability flag, in addition to whatever they already use. The Jester flag is now the 'default' usability flag for all bards.

 

Step 2: make a new bard kit that mimics all characteristics of the trueclass bard. It will use the Jester usability flag. Add it to the top of the kit menu, and remove the trueclass kit, with judicious use of REPLACE_TEXTUALLY.

 

Step 3: patch all wizard spells from the schools of necromancy, conjuration, and invocation to exclude Jesters.

 

Voila, we now have a way to restrict bards' spell use.

[Jarno Mikkola]

Sorry Galactygon for the off topicness...

 

Step 1-3: patch all wizard spells from the schools of necromancy, conjuration, and invocation to exclude Jesters.

And then there isn't even one bard that can use those spells.

Why not patch jester kit to exclude a spell school, patch the scald to exclude another school, and the last exclude the last school, then make the default bard to use all the three usability flags in the kitlist.2da file, while the others can use several if they like or none of the bard usability flags if they so decide.

This makes the bard kits specialists, while the "true" bard is not... but to compensate for that, they could get more spells or something(read as, the bonus is open for suggestions). AS they have now their own clabxx.2da -file.

[kreso]

I'm pretty sure Refinements does something concerning Jester usability flags.

[subtledoctor]

What you actually do with it is of course up to any modder. I'm concerned with the more abstract question: can we restrict any wizard spells from being learned by bards, given the revelations from Galactygon and Avenger in this thread.

 

The reason I mention the Jester flag is to avoid messing with item usability, which unfortunately is inextricably intertwined with these spell learning exclusions. AFAIK, the Jester and Trueclass are completely identical as far as item use. That's why it is okay to hijack the Jester's kit flag. But it's still hijacking a kit flag, which is not ideal, and I wouldn't want to hijack more than one for this kind of mod.

[Jarno Mikkola]

I'm pretty sure Refinements does something concerning Jester usability flags.

Subtledoctor would know of this as he has the last incarnation of the mod at his desk..

 

@std: Well, you could also give the normal Bard, the Illusionist, the Enchanter and/or the Diviner usability flags to try to get rid of the unnecessary extra restrictions. I am not exactly sure this will fix everything, but one could try and work it out.

 

EDIT:

Well, I have published a mod that changes/eliminates arcane opposition schools, so that's not a method I'm

inclined to use...

 

Plus even without that mod, opposition schools differ between different games... (IWD vs. BG)...

But you can just exclude the install to EET, BGEE, & BG2EE if you so desire. And you did notice that doing so gives the kits an free extra spell.

Of course it can be "balanced". But doing so will bolster the mages... especially when you allow OP summons ...

[subtledoctor]

Well, I have published a mod that changes/eliminates arcane opposition schools, so that's not a method I'm

inclined to use...

 

Plus even without that mod, opposition schools differ between different games... (IWD vs. BG)

 

I have no idea what Refinements does with the Jester flag, but I very very vaguely recall they might have used it because of the same reason I mentioned, that it can safely substitute for the main bard class usability flag.

[kreso]

I have no idea what Refinements does with the Jester flag, but I very very vaguely recall they might have used it because of the same reason I mentioned, that it can safely substitute for the main bard class usability flag.

 

 

 

 

The restrictions on items couldn't come without cost, but it is a VERY negligible

cost, as long as you know what's happening (or even if you don't, actually).

First, we had to use the UNUSABLE values of some existing Kits. Nothing new. But,

second, we had to *steal completely* the UNUSABLE value of another one, in order

to bend it to our needs. So, we "sacrificed" the Jester Kit.

Ok, but What does it mean?

 

Nothing to really worry about.

There are indeed many items usable only by Bards, or UN-usable by Bards.

But there are *not* items available -say- to Skalds while not to Jesters.

This is true for the regular game, and all the mods we've seen so far.

There's never a discrimination, and the UNUSABLE value is really needed *only* for

discrimination between kits of the same class.

 

You should get the point: the UNUSABLE value of Jesters is somehow a "wasted value"!

(there are others)

 

So, *only while the Sword Angel Kit is installed*, Jesters "share" the same UNUSABLE

value as Skalds, while S.A. uses the Jesters' one, and involved items are temporarily

modified in an appropriate way!

Tricky? Sure. Inelegant? Maybe. But it's also a *solution*, which allowed us to make

the present kit as perfect as possible.

And where's the problem? Jesters and Skalds work **NORMALLY**!!!

Should EVER, in a FAR future, a new mod provide some items that'll treat Skalds and

Jesters differently, then Jesters would still use the same items as Skalds if the

Sword Angel Kit is installed.

OK, but how many protagonists do you run at the same time?

 

 

 

[Grammarsalad]

Step 1: patch all bard kits to share the Jester usability flag, in addition to whatever they already use. The Jester flag is now the 'default' usability flag for all bards.

 

Step 2: make a new bard kit that mimics all characteristics of the trueclass bard. It will use the Jester usability flag. Add it to the top of the kit menu, and remove the trueclass kit, with judicious use of REPLACE_TEXTUALLY.

 

Step 3: patch all wizard spells from the schools of necromancy, conjuration, and invocation to exclude Jesters.

 

Voila, we now have a way to restrict bards' spell use.

This strikes me as completely doable.

 

In addition to this, perhaps create a custom "bard" school, with spells that exclude truclasses, and specialist mages. While this would exclude trueclass bards, it won't matter because the "trueclass" bard now uses the jester usability flag...

 

I'm assuming, with no real evidence, that the jester usability functions like the wildmage. It probably doesn't...

 

Here is what i think is a better method to simulate custom spell lists for arcane casters.

 

1. Create a list of "universal" spells, like in faiths and powers. That is, all arcane spells that are not on this list are excluded from All arcane classes. ( this way, no class can select an excluded spell at character generation).

 

2. Modify All arcane scrolls to initiate dialog when the character uses it to learn a spell.

 

Aquadrizzt described how to do this a long time ago in one of our conversations. I don't remember the details, but it involved making all scrolls conversable.

 

Anyway, once this is done, script checks and dialog selections can do the rest of the work.

 

Edit: this is only if one wants to create custom spell lists. I think if the goal is merely to exclude bards from certain schools, the quoted strategy should work ( though, of course, I defer to Avenger (etc) about this)

[Jarno Mikkola]

2. Modify All arcane scrolls to initiate dialog when the character uses it to learn a spell.

I heard the "moded cointent" bell ring in my ears. This will certainly break the 4th wall and the fifth law of thermal dynamics. You know, of the three that exist.