Clubs and Backstabbing

[lac]

one more thought about weapon balances. The club blackblood, I see, is now a +2 club. This will greatly disappoint those cleric/thieves who want to backstab something that needs a +3 or better to hit. A club is really the only thing they can use. I cannot think of any more +3 clubs available in the game. (You may have added some, of course, this is my first time through using this mod).

Just thought I would mention it, before I forget.

[Icendoan]

You backstab well with staves. In fact, a staff is the second best weapon to backstab with. (unmodded Staff of the Ram +6).

 

The best is BBoD (Black Blade of Disaster) and then Shapechange: Iron Golem, for the Golem's fists.

 

With stacking Bard's songs, it has done over 1000 damage legitimately.

 

Icen

[Demivrgvs]

one more thought about weapon balances. The club blackblood, I see, is now a +2 club. This will greatly disappoint those cleric/thieves who want to backstab something that needs a +3 or better to hit.

You'll find a +3 club just before leaving Spellhold. 1handed +3 weapons are generally restricted to the late chapters of SoA with IR.

Furthermore there's a component in IR which would allow clerics/thieves to wield edged weapons usable by thieves.

 

You backstab well with staves. In fact, a staff is the second best weapon to backstab with. (unmodded Staff of the Ram +6).

Ah thanks for reminding it to me! I'll find a way to block it, even if it requires me to flag the staff as unusable for thieves! Backstabbing with a blunt weapon should be hardly as efficient as with an edged weapon! I recall a Tweak about that (a penalty to backstab multiplier with weapons that aren't appropriate for backstabbing), but I'm not sure how many players would like it to be implemented.

 

The best is BBoD (Black Blade of Disaster) and then Shapechange: Iron Golem, for the Golem's fists.

I may have nothing against the BBoD, it's a 9th level spell which creates a sword after all. But thanks again for reminding me about the Iron Golem! I'll probably add to him -100% penalties to hide and move silently, and what about making it immune to invisibility spells?

[lac]

You backstab well with staves. In fact, a staff is the second best weapon to backstab with. (unmodded Staff of the Ram +6).

Ah thanks for reminding it to me! I'll find a way to block it, even if it requires me to flag the staff as unusable for thieves! Backstabbing with a blunt weapon should be hardly as efficient as with an edged weapon! I recall a Tweak about that (a penalty to backstab multiplier with weapons that aren't appropriate for backstabbing), but I'm not sure how many players would like it to be implemented.

 

Level 1 NPCs has this. I am strongly in favour of this tweak, and am using this right now. According to level1 NPC

docs, in an unmodded game, there only 2 handed weapon that can do backstabbing is the staff, which is why there

is a tweak to just restrict quarterstaves.

 

 

The best is BBoD (Black Blade of Disaster) and then Shapechange: Iron Golem, for the Golem's fists.

I may have nothing against the BBoD, it's a 9th level spell which creates a sword after all. But thanks again for reminding me about the Iron Golem! I'll probably add to him -100% penalties to hide and move silently, and what about making it immune to invisibility spells?

 

Hee hee. And won't *that* surprise somebody :-)

[Demivrgvs]

Level 1 NPCs has this.

It doesn't for what I can see. I was talking about something like The_Bigg's Improved Backstabbing tweak found in the DOTweak. I have never used it, but I admit that it does make sense and helps making daggers and short swords much more "balanced"/interesting for thieves.

 

In the original tweak the backstab modifier is reduced as follows:

 

Bastard Swords-2 Flails-1 Halberds-5 Long Swords/Katanas-1 Two-Handed Swords-3 Quarter Staves-4 Spears-3

I hope the_bigg won't mind if we "stole" the idea and credit both him and Sim, surely I'm not modding for "personal glory". I would probably just make it cap at -3 or something similar, as I think even a -2x makes the weapon very unappealing for backstabbers.

 

I'll talk to Mike about it if even a small bunch of players are interested, and we'll see.

[Salk]

Level 1 NPCs has this.

It doesn't for what I can see. I was talking about something like The_Bigg's Improved Backstabbing tweak found in the DOTweak. I have never used it, but I admit that it does make sense and helps making daggers and short swords much more "balanced"/interesting for thieves.

 

In the original tweak the backstab modifier is reduced as follows:

 

Bastard Swords-2 Flails-1 Halberds-5 Long Swords/Katanas-1 Two-Handed Swords-3 Quarter Staves-4 Spears-3

I hope the_bigg won't mind if we "stole" the idea and credit both him and Sim, surely I'm not modding for "personal glory". I would probably just make it cap at -3 or something similar, as I think even a -2x makes the weapon very unappealing for backstabbers.

 

I'll talk to Mike about it if even a small bunch of players are interested, and we'll see.

 

It makes sense to me so count me as interested in this tweak...

[erik]

And what makes a spear less suitable for backstabbing than a big long sword / katana ? I mean, the usual verb for what you do with a spear is stab, isn't it?

 

Just saying.

[lac]

And what makes a spear less suitable for backstabbing than a big long sword / katana ? I mean, the usual verb for what you do with a spear is stab, isn't it?

 

Just saying.

 

 

In my PnP games you cannot bs with a longsword or a katana either. I'd be happy to see that as a mod here.

 

Laura --anticipating the howls from the kensai/thieves right now ...

[Guest Guest]

I like the tweak included in L1NPCs that makes all 2handed weapons unable to backstab i.e. you only get 1x the damage for a backstab with these weapons. I like this because I think it's unlikely you'd be able to sneak up on someone with such a large weapon.

[Salk]

Dear Laura,

 

In my party I have a Kensai/Thief ( ) but I would still welcome a rebalancing of the backstabbing feature.

 

I am not an expert but I do believe that one of the parameters to keep in consideration is the size of the weapon used. The smaller, the better.

 

Also, my instinct tells me that blades (slashing weapons) are more suited to the task (perhaps because such weapons have always been associated to assassins).

 

Two more things to keep in consideration: the weapon's speed factor and weight.

 

I believe that katanas and long swords, being medium sized, should have some penalty. A meager -1 in the table above is not enough. Two handed weapons should instead be denied any backstabbing capability.

 

My two cents...

[Salk]

And what makes a spear less suitable for backstabbing than a big long sword / katana ? I mean, the usual verb for what you do with a spear is stab, isn't it?

 

Just saying.

 

A spear, as any other two-handed weapons, feels less suitable than a katana or a long sword for backstabbing purpouses.

 

Also the backstabbing action makes me think of a very swift attack. A non-enchanted spear is rather slow (speed factor 6). A long sword has speed factor 5; a katana 4.

[Mike1072]

What would people think about tying it to the classification system we have for dual-wielding?

 

• No penalty for 'light' one handers (dagger, short sword, wakizashi, ninja-to, club)
  
• -1 penalty for 'medium' one handers (long sword, axe, scimitar, warhammer, mace, morningstar)
  
• -2 penalty for 'heavy' one handers (bastard swords, katanas, flails)
  
• -3? penalty for two-handers
  

 

P.S. I've split this from the other topic.

[J Beau]

If you decide to implement this, I hope you make it a stand alone option. I like backstabbing the way it is, it is the only thing that makes a thief worthwhile in combat.

[Jarno Mikkola]

If you decide to implement this, I hope you make it a stand alone option. I like backstabbing the way it is, it is the only thing that makes a thief worthwhile in combat.

Where do I sign... I want it too to be a a stand alone option.

[Mike1072]

If you decide to implement this, I hope you make it a stand alone option.

It would be.