Jump to content

Clubs and Backstabbing


lac

Recommended Posts

Alternate Table (radical):

 

(EDITED: Added Spears; Daggers now give a +1 bonus instead of a +2)

 

  • Daggers: +1 bonus to backstab multiplier
  • Wakizashis, Short Swords, Clubs: no penalty
  • Ninja-tos: -1 penalty to backstab multiplier
  • Maces, Warhammers: -2 penalty to backstab multiplier
  • Long Swords, Scimitars, Katanas: -2 penalty to backstab multiplier
  • Morning Stars: -3 penalty to backstab multiplier
  • Axes: -3 penalty to backstab multiplier
  • Flails: No backstab multiplier
  • Bastard swords: No backstab multiplier
  • Two-handed Swords, Staves, Spears, Halberds: No backstab multiplier

 

Rationale:

 

Dagger: the best weapon for backstabbing because of its lowest speed factor, highest manuvrability and because it can cut precise wounds. Best melee factor.

 

Short sword: excellent backstabbing weapon. Extremely low speed factor, very good melee factor and light weight.

 

Wakizashi: the oriental version of the short sword.

 

Ninja-to: less good melee factor and slightly slower attack than Wakizashis, Ninja-tos are still ideal weapons for stealth attacks.

 

Club: high maneuvrability. Ideal weapon for head crushing blows. Excellent speed factor and light weight. Cleric/Thieves send their thanks.

 

Mace: similar to clubs but heavier and much slower. Good melee factor.

 

Morning star: it's a mace with spiked heads. Less suitable for backstabbing because of their weight and poor speed.

 

Long Sword: good weight and good speed but its size and reach are still two negative factors.

 

Scimitar: very similar to long sword when it comes to backstabbing value.

 

Katana: heavier but faster than the long sword. It shares the same problems a long sword has when used for backstabbing purpouses.

 

Axe: slow, average maneuvrability, so-so melee factor and precision. Overall low backstabbing value.

 

Warhammer: very good speed, average weight. The melee factor can vary from good to very poor.

 

Flail: the heaviest one-handed weapon in the game deals a wide-spread damage which denotes its entire lack of capacity of hitting a specific spot. Can't be used for backstabbing.

 

Bastard Sword: its very poor melee factor, slow speed and weight hint at this should be the only one(and half)-handed sword that is not to benefit of any backstabbing multiplier. Can't be used for backstabbing.

 

Two-handed weapons: too low melee factor, lack of precision and maneuvrability are all factors against them when it comes to backstabbing enemies. Can't be used for backstabbing.

Link to comment
I think that is only half the story. There are some items which should be restricted from backstabbing because you

just cannot sneak around with them.

 

Sneaking:

it has nothing to do with realism in this game. You can hide in plain sight in the desert if you have enough ranks in stealth, or hiding in a dark area but then walk in front of a enemy without him noticing you; it's a supernatural ability more than a plain skill, so hiding a scimitar is not that hard; the rogue is probably hiding 4 sets of armors and a dozen weapons in his backpack without anybody noticing it too.

You can backstab after going invisible too, and the engine doesn't permit to swing randomly the sword in front of you when you, or the enemy, know somebody drank a potion while fighting. Following pnp 'realistic' rules, everything you wear and wield goes invisible when the effect takes place so be it a dagger or a halberd, you can sneak around with it.

Noises and smell from a sneaking character? Not implemented, that's why you have to live with game limitations and forget realism.

 

Backstabbing:

the word itself is deceiving you.

Do you remember all the enemy thieves backstabbing you? They don't even need to go behind your characters, they can backstab from right in front of you because of how the game handles the AI ( I remember the random thugs and pirates mostly using short swords, long swords, and scimitars; changing the rules for these weapons might mess them too and that's bad ).

 

Overall, I think making this game realistic is beyond modders power, while coherency is what they should aim for, so that Mike's proposal about relating backstab multiplier to dualwielding penalities seems the more elegant one. A small help to daggers sounded nice, shame it started all this geekery.

Link to comment
A revised table:

 

  • +1 bonus for daggers
  • No penalty for other 'light' one handers (short sword, wakizashi, ninja-to, club)
  • -1 penalty for 'medium' one handers (long sword, axe, scimitar, warhammer, mace, morningstar)
  • -2 penalty for 'heavy' one handers (bastard swords, katanas, flails)
  • -3 penalty for two-handers

This is probably the suggested table I like the most. I never thought about adding a bonus to daggers, but I suppose it makes sense, and it may really enhances the appeal of both daggers and this very optional component itself.

Salk, the +2 bonus to daggers would be incredibly too effective imo, while +1 should allow to "rebalance" the low damage output of daggers without making them much more powerful than short swords. Shorts swords should remain very close in terms of backstabbing effectiveness.

 

Considering how quickly a staff can be used (it's certainly a hell of a lot faster than a halberd), maybe the staff should only have a -2 penalty to the Backstab multiplier, while all other 2-handers have a -3.
It seems reasonable, and in line with Mike's thoughts about this component.

 

I think you're taking "Backstabbing" a little too literally. All it really is is a Sneak Attack, concentrating on landing a powerful hit in a vital/unprotected area before the enemy even knows there's a threat. Theoretically, you could "backstab" someone from the front, with a blunt weapon, all you have to do is take them unawares.
I do agree. I think a sneak attack can be made with every weapon, but sneaking around an armored guard and landing a deadly strike in a vital/unprotected area should be much more easy with a dagger or short sword than a two handed heavy weapon.

That being said, if we apply a -3 penalty to two handed weapons, those who are "voting" to have these weapon unusable at all for backstabbing should be quite pleased anyway. Even a master thief's x5 modifier would be reduced to a quite ineffective x2, which imo makes some sense as the target is caught unprepared for the blow.

 

 

Unfortunately I also have do deal with engine limitations, thus I must say that I may have troubles dealing with dual wielders. Bonus/penalties from both weapons would stack unless I find an easy way to avoid it, and though I have not too much complains about stacking penalties (and they may make sense) I really wouldn't like the opposite (and it wouldn't make sense either imo). Currently I can think of only one soultion: apply an effect/spell every round which doesn't stack with itself...it should work, but adding it to every item may slow down the cpu.

Link to comment
Unfortunately I also have do deal with engine limitations, thus I must say that I may have troubles dealing with dual wielders. Bonus/penalties from both weapons would stack
Correct me if I am wrong, but couldn't you just apply the penalty from first hand as the second will never be counted as a backstab, at least from a stealth attack.
Link to comment
...
What about spears? :p

And if it goes to the speed factor, the + weapons are better than the normal so the +2 Short sword(speed factor 1) need to have better backstabbing modifier than the normal dagger(speed factor 2). :p

 

Spears are two-handed and - according to my table - can't be used for backstabbing purpouses.

 

Demivrgvs,

 

personally I like better the Alternate Table up here because the other seems much less logical to my eyes.

Link to comment

Sure, but it wouldn't ignore the passive effects of the offhand weapon.

 

For example, my assassin (lvl 22) has a natural x7 multiplier, he wields (offhand) a dagger, and in his main hand the SSoB, which also gives +1 backstabbing and better damage.

 

If he backstabs with that, he will get 9*((1d6+bonus) + STR) on attack, making it very hard to balance with offhand weapons.

 

Icen

Link to comment
Salk, the +2 bonus to daggers would be incredibly too effective imo, while +1 should allow to "rebalance" the low damage output of daggers without making them much more powerful than short swords.

 

A non-magical dagger inflicts 1D4 points of damage.

 

With a +2 Bonus to Multiplier, it could reach a max of 36 (1D4*9) damage dealt.

 

A non-magical short swords inflicts 1D6 points of damage.

 

According to my table, it could reach a max of 42 (1D6*7) damage dealt.

 

How does this make it "incredibly too effective"? :p

Link to comment

No, my point is using the SSoB, which iirc is +3, so add another 27 points of damage on.

 

There are other things which deal extra damage, plus the usual array of spells on a character, can make this more than just 42 damage.

 

And my point is that even if I hold a dagger in my offhand, I will still get the backstab bonus from it, so it would be *8 at minimum, using a dagger in the offhand.

 

Icen

Link to comment
Bonus/penalties from both weapons would stack
That's something I forgot about. 177 could get the job done, but... I can't seem to find a way to give a creature protection against specific EFFs. As an immunity to opcode would protect against penalties as well. Using SPLs seem to be unworkable too, as iirc they are can't be 'while equipped'.

 

I suppose giving daggers +1 BS and leaving it be would be the best way then. Extra +1 bonus isn't that much and if someone wants to cheat, then why not after all. Besides, there'll be a good reason to roleplay dual-daggered rogue.

Link to comment
A non-magical dagger inflicts 1D4 points of damage.

With a +2 Bonus to Multiplier, it could reach a max of 36=(1D4*9) damage dealt.

 

A non-magical short swords inflicts 1D6 points of damage.

According to my table, it could reach a max of 42=(1D6*7) damage dealt.

 

How does this make it "incredibly too effective"? :p

Well, what about the +5 weapons(Dagger of the Star +5), that's 45 to shord sword 35 damage from the weapon bonuses + the actual weapon... making the dagger far better, as 36+45=81, while 42+35=77. :p

That and not to mention that the average damage is for daggers (9+36)/2+45=67.5 while for short swords it's just (7+42)/2+35=59.5 .

Link to comment

As others as pointed out what I was trying to say is tha a +2 bonus to backstab would be too effective because it also multiplies enchantments' bonuses, and similar bonuses (e.g. Assassin's +1 to damage). Thus I'm quite sure I would vote against it.

 

Bonus/penalties from both weapons would stack
That's something I forgot about. 177 could get the job done, but... I can't seem to find a way to give a creature protection against specific EFFs. As an immunity to opcode would protect against penalties as well. Using SPLs seem to be unworkable too, as iirc they are can't be 'while equipped'.

 

I suppose giving daggers +1 BS and leaving it be would be the best way then. Extra +1 bonus isn't that much and if someone wants to cheat, then why not after all. Besides, there'll be a good reason to roleplay dual-daggered rogue.
I would have used cast spell each round while equipped, but then I realized I don't like a current feature of SSoB that Icen has pointed out.

 

And my point is that even if I hold a dagger in my offhand, I will still get the backstab bonus from it, so it would be *8 at minimum, using a dagger in the offhand.
Exactly, I don't like it at all, and I think I may have come up with a solution to avoid both stacking bonuses and this "issue".

 

A possible solution may be:

- increase thief and stalker's base backstab multiplier by one

- then apply the suggested table increasing all penalties by one:

  • No penalty for daggers
  • -1 penalty for 'light' one handers (short sword, wakizashi, ninja-to, club)
  • -2 penalty for 'medium' one handers (long sword, axe, scimitar, warhammer, mace, morningstar)
  • -3 penalty for 'heavy' one handers (bastard swords, katanas, flails)
  • -4 penalty for two-handers

 

One thing that I'm not sure of right now is if this solution would require us to patch every backstabber in the game to add +1 modifier or if the class automatically "update" the character's ability.

 

What do you think about it?

 

Note: penalties would still stack for dual wielders, but I actually think that making single weapon style more attractive is a good thing. Am I wrong?

Link to comment

No penalty for daggers, I agree with. You are making single weapon better, as well as improving S+S.

 

An increase to the classes globally would be bad IMO, and kit mods would lose out, so items are the best way.

 

Coding it isn't all that hard, to patch all the items. You might as well patch everything as Stalkers can also Backstab.

 

What you could do is use a spell with level requirements *setting* the backstab to one more than it should be, which would also work.

 

Icen

Link to comment
A non-magical dagger inflicts 1D4 points of damage.

With a +2 Bonus to Multiplier, it could reach a max of 36=(1D4*9) damage dealt.

 

A non-magical short swords inflicts 1D6 points of damage.

According to my table, it could reach a max of 42=(1D6*7) damage dealt.

 

How does this make it "incredibly too effective"? :p

Well, what about the +5 weapons(Dagger of the Star +5), that's 45 to shord sword 35 damage from the weapon bonuses + the actual weapon... making the dagger far better, as 36+45=81, while 42+35=77. :p

That and not to mention that the average damage is for daggers (9+36)/2+45=67.5 while for short swords it's just (7+42)/2+35=59.5 .

 

I still stand by my opinion.

 

If the game provides daggers that are much more powerful than short swords, that's not my fault, is it?

 

To be fair to the weapon classes, we must compare the non-magical versions, not the enchanted ones.

 

Said that, for me it's perfectly sensible that daggers prove to be better than short swords when it comes to backstabbing. That's exactly the point.

Link to comment
for me it's perfectly sensible that daggers prove to be better than short swords when it comes to backstabbing.
No objection from me. I too would prefer daggers to surpass swords when it comes to backstabbing but remain inferior in direct combat. However, since the difference between the two is only 1 (one) average point of damage, with the +1 BS bonus both are quite comparable in both combat and BSing.

 

One thing that I'm not sure of right now is if this solution would require us to patch every backstabber in the game to add +1 modifier or if the class automatically "update" the character's ability.
Have run a quick test - kit enhancements seem to work only upon joining the party.
Link to comment

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...