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Why is it that the main component overwrites


Guest Dirty Uncle Bertie

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Guest Dirty Uncle Bertie

I'm sure there's a very good technical reason for this, and I'm interested to know what it is.

 

I'm trying the mod for the first time, and have been looking into the compatbility side of things. If we take the Weapon Changes part of the Main Component - this overwrites - but the Weapon Changes part of the Global Changes patches, correct? I'd just like to be clear on this, as I'd have assumed both would work in the same way, but the readme does say that one overwrites and the other patches.

 

Assuming the Weapon Changes part of the Global Changes does patch, should the Global Changes be installed before or after SCS II and BG2 Tweak Pack, or does it not matter?

 

At the moment I have this for order of install:

 

Item Revisions (Main Component)

Rogue Rebalancing

Sword Coast Stratagems II

BG2 Tweak Pack

L1NPCs

 

But I don't know where to put Item Revisions (Global Changes), other than it needing to go after Rogue Rebalancing. I found this comment regarding install order, but don't know if it refers to just the main component or the mod as a whole:

 

http://forums.gibberlings3.net/index.php?s...mp;#entry115606

 

I want to use BG2 Tweak Pack's Two-Handed Bastard Swords myself, so have an interest in this area.

 

Finally, the online readme (dunno about the one that comes with the mod) says:

 

Dexterity Penalties in Heavy Armor (Option 3)

This component applies a reduction to movement speed while wearing heavy armor.

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I'm sure there's a very good technical reason for this, and I'm interested to know what it is.

The main component overwrites items for a couple reasons. In many cases, it would not be practical to patch items individually when the goal is to completely change the item in question - we wouldn't want any previous things sneaking into the new version. The reason all items were done this way was to save some time and make sure everything acts the way it's intended to.

 

I'm trying the mod for the first time, and have been looking into the compatbility side of things. If we take the Weapon Changes part of the Main Component - this overwrites - but the Weapon Changes part of the Global Changes patches, correct? I'd just like to be clear on this, as I'd have assumed both would work in the same way, but the readme does say that one overwrites and the other patches.

They do not work in the same way. Many of the optional components were previously built-in to the items and were re-written as optional patches to allow for more player freedom in deciding what to install. However, some changes Demi considered mandatory for his vision of the items, and these remain built-in to his items. The reason there are separate components for some of these (instead of including the patching code in the main component) is so the main component can be installed early (before other mods that patch items) and the changes for all items can be installed very late (after mods that add items).

 

Assuming the Weapon Changes part of the Global Changes does patch, should the Global Changes be installed before or after SCS II and BG2 Tweak Pack, or does it not matter?

 

At the moment I have this for order of install:

 

Item Revisions (Main Component)

Rogue Rebalancing

Sword Coast Stratagems II

BG2 Tweak Pack

L1NPCs

 

But I don't know where to put Item Revisions (Global Changes), other than it needing to go after Rogue Rebalancing. I found this comment regarding install order, but don't know if it refers to just the main component or the mod as a whole:

 

http://forums.gibberlings3.net/index.php?s...mp;#entry115606

 

I want to use BG2 Tweak Pack's Two-Handed Bastard Swords myself, so have an interest in this area.

The other components of the mod have been designed to patch all items, and should be installed after any mods that add or replace items. Ideally, these components should be installed just after other tweak mods (near the very end of the install).

There is a component or two from Tweak Pack that adds items (Exotic Items Pack for sure), so IR should be installed after that. Though I've not tested it, I believe the Weapon Changes should interact fine with Two-Handed Bastard Swords/Katanas regardless of install order.

 

Finally, the online readme (dunno about the one that comes with the mod) says:

 

Dexterity Penalties in Heavy Armor (Option 3)

This component applies a reduction to movement speed while wearing heavy armor.

Thanks for reporting this. As a side note, the online readme should be the most up to date version, since it's much easier to update it than release a new mod version.

 

While your at it where would you put Spell Revisions and Refinements in that mix.

Spell Revisions should go either right before or right after the main component of Item Revisions (doesn't really matter currently). I don't regularly use Refinements, so it'd be best to refer to their documentation for install order. I'm not sure how well its armour component would interact with our stuff, but the rest should probably be okay.

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Item Revisions (Main Component)

Rogue Rebalancing

Sword Coast Stratagems II

BG2 Tweak Pack

L1NPCs

This install-order should be fine. Item Revisions' optional components should go after BG2 Tweak Pack if you use its "Exotic Items Pack" component, else you can just install them at the same time of IR's main component.

 

While your at it where would you put Spell Revisions and Refinements in that mix.
Spell Revisions may be installed before or after IR in that list. Actually SR can be installed pratically anywhere, but it has to be installed before RR and SCS.

I generally install Refinements before Spell Revisions, has I prefer to use its spells (Devas, Planetars, Elemental Princes, ...), but there shouldn't be any problem doing the opposite. Refinements can be installed before or after Item Revisions, but if you want to use Refinements' Armor changes intall them after Item Revisions.

NOTE: do not install Refinements' Armor Change with Updated Descriptions Option, as that option severly screws IR's descriptions. The changes should be ok (though we are thinking of doing something like that ourselves for V2), you just have to use them without the in-game references.

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Item Revisions (Main Component)

Rogue Rebalancing

Sword Coast Stratagems II

BG2 Tweak Pack

L1NPCs

This install-order should be fine. Item Revisions' optional components should go after BG2 Tweak Pack if you use its "Exotic Items Pack" component, else you can just install them at the same time of IR's main component.

Rogue Rebalancing adds a lot of items. I'd like to keep a consistent recommendation even when it's not truly necessary - to reduce any possible confusion - so I'd still say stick it after the BG2 Tweak Pack.

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Item Revisions (Main Component)

Rogue Rebalancing

Sword Coast Stratagems II

BG2 Tweak Pack

L1NPCs

This install-order should be fine. Item Revisions' optional components should go after BG2 Tweak Pack if you use its "Exotic Items Pack" component, else you can just install them at the same time of IR's main component.

Rogue Rebalancing adds a lot of items. I'd like to keep a consistent recommendation even when it's not truly necessary - to reduce any possible confusion - so I'd still say stick it after the BG2 Tweak Pack.

 

The Rogue Rebalancing readme says BG2 Tweak Pack and SCSII should go after Rogue Rebalancing.

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The Rogue Rebalancing readme says BG2 Tweak Pack and SCSII should go after Rogue Rebalancing.
That's because it's wanted that way... meaning that you don't actually need to, but the Tweak Packs (spell)tweaks are considered to be lesser than that of SCSIIs. Here's a link that stipulates the fact.
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Guest Dirty Uncle Bertie

Thanks for the replies.

 

I've read the documentation for all the mods and, combined with the answers in this topic, I don't see how you can go wrong with this:

 

Spell Revisions

Item Revisions (Main Component)

Rogue Rebalancing

Sword Coast Stratagems 1or2

BG2 Tweak Pack

Item Revisions (Global Changes)

L1NPCs

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Item Revisions (Main Component)

Rogue Rebalancing

Sword Coast Stratagems II

BG2 Tweak Pack

L1NPCs

This install-order should be fine. Item Revisions' optional components should go after BG2 Tweak Pack if you use its "Exotic Items Pack" component, else you can just install them at the same time of IR's main component.

Rogue Rebalancing adds a lot of items. I'd like to keep a consistent recommendation even when it's not truly necessary - to reduce any possible confusion - so I'd still say stick it after the BG2 Tweak Pack.

 

The Rogue Rebalancing readme says BG2 Tweak Pack and SCSII should go after Rogue Rebalancing.

Woops, I should have been more clear here. I meant that the optional parts of IR should still go after the Tweak Pack - installing it at the same time as the main component would mean it would not affect items from Rogue Rebalancing.

 

Thanks for the replies.

 

I've read the documentation for all the mods and, combined with the answers in this topic, I don't see how you can go wrong with this:

 

Spell Revisions

Item Revisions (Main Component)

Rogue Rebalancing

Sword Coast Stratagems 1or2

BG2 Tweak Pack

Item Revisions (Global Changes)

L1NPCs

That looks good to me. Be sure to apply the hotfixes before installing IR, and give us a shout if you run into anything fishy in-game.

 

Oh, I forgot to mention that Two-Handed Bastard Swords (haven't tried Katanas) works fine with that install order.

Cool, thanks for letting us know.

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Guest D. U. Bertie

There are some more things I want to discuss, so rather than open a new topic I'll mention them here.

 

Regarding the install order, we need to put P5Tweaks somewhere, and it looks like it should certainly go either just before or just after Item Revisions (Global Changes). It may not matter which since both do patching. Still, until anyone tells me otherwise, here's what I'll do:

 

Spell Revisions

Item Revisions (Main Component)

Rogue Rebalancing

Sword Coast Stratagems 1 or 2

BG2 Tweak Pack

Item Revisions (Global Changes)

P5Tweaks

L1NPCs

 

Component 6 of P5Tweaks, "Increased Spear Range and Damage", probably shouldn't be installed if you're also using Item Revisions (may be worth making a note of this in the IR readme).

 

Regarding IR's Shadow Armor +3 and Spider's Boots of Stealth, am I right in thinking that these would be just great for a mage/thief? I've had a little play around at the start of the game (having cheated them in) and Imoen is having a blast with them, being all stealthy and well-armored while casting spells! Kick ass!

 

For the Shadow Armor, a few things:

 

The description says "Shadow armor" at one point instead of "Shadow Armor".

Maybe "...allowing to perform thieving and casting movements without efforts" should say something like "...allowing the wearer to perform thieving and casting movements without effort" or "...without any additional effort".

I assume that once IR affects an EasyTutu/BGT game, the Baldur's Gate 1 Shadow Armor and Boots of Stealth will have different descriptions than they do now (there are 2 pairs of Boots of Stealth in BG1 anyway)? Will their stats be the same (maybe not the armor class, but the stealth bonuses certainly I'd like to keep the same)?

 

Finally, could you please add a line to the Shadow Armor statistics section that specifically states that it allows the casting of arcane spells while worn (or words to that effect)? The first time I tried the armor on I did have a quick read of its history and stuff, but I discovered quite by accident that Imoen could wear it and still cast spells. In fact, I almost reported this as a bug(!), since there was no specific mention of it allowing arcane spellcasting (note that I've currently only installed the main IR component). It was only when I read the blurb again that I realised allowing arcane spellcasting is intentional. I'd mainly like it specifically stated so I don't forget in future and not give the armor to my mage/thief (or, even worse, keep taking the armor off them when I want them to cast a spell :p).

 

Oh, one last thing: can anyone tell me if you get the Shadow Armor +3 and Spider's Boots of Stealth during the normal course of Chapter 2, or if you have to side with the Shadow Thieves (rather than Bodhi) in order to get them? I'd hate to only get hold of them while siding with the Shadow Thieves, since the items are too damn useful to miss out on, IMO.

 

Many thanks.

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Regarding the install order, we need to put P5Tweaks somewhere, and it looks like it should certainly go either just before or just after Item Revisions (Global Changes). It may not matter which since both do patching. Still, until anyone tells me otherwise, here's what I'll do:

 

Spell Revisions

Item Revisions (Main Component)

Rogue Rebalancing

Sword Coast Stratagems 1 or 2

BG2 Tweak Pack

Item Revisions (Global Changes)

P5Tweaks

L1NPCs

It shouldn't really matter.

 

Component 6 of P5Tweaks, "Increased Spear Range and Damage", probably shouldn't be installed if you're also using Item Revisions (may be worth making a note of this in the IR readme).

I believe there are two versions of this component in the mod.

 

The version that doesn't update item descriptions should work fine with IR, though if you have the Weapon Changes installed, its only effect would be to increase any range 1 spears to range 2 - I think Demi's probably adjusted the items from the main component to this already.

 

The version of the component that updates item descriptions should not be installed with the main IR component, as it will overwrite the description, nor should other tweaks that overwrite descriptions, unless you're cool with this.

 

Edit: As of P5Tweaks v2, the above information is no longer true - this has been condensed into one component, and it patches descriptions instead of overwriting them.

 

Slightly related: I believe that the 'Description Updates for Universal Clubs' and 'Description Updates for Make +x/+y Weapons Consistent' components from the BG2 Tweak Pack also overwrite descriptions (the 'Universal Clubs' and 'Make +x/+y Weapons Consistent' are fine by themselves, though). I was planning to inquire about updating these but I haven't gotten around to it.

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Regarding IR's Shadow Armor +3 and Spider's Boots of Stealth, am I right in thinking that these would be just great for a mage/thief? I've had a little play around at the start of the game (having cheated them in) and Imoen is having a blast with them, being all stealthy and well-armored while casting spells! Kick ass!
Imoen is a perfect candidate for this armor.

 

I assume that once IR affects an EasyTutu/BGT game, the Baldur's Gate 1 Shadow Armor and Boots of Stealth will have different descriptions than they do now (there are 2 pairs of Boots of Stealth in BG1 anyway)? Will their stats be the same (maybe not the armor class, but the stealth bonuses certainly I'd like to keep the same)?
IR is already compatible with BGT, though I may have skipped a few BG1 items. IR has assigned a new background to the Boots of Stealth which also mentions that multiple copies exist. If an item appears bothin BG1 and BG2 it has to keep the same background and abilities.

 

Finally, could you please add a line to the Shadow Armor statistics section that specifically states that it allows the casting of arcane spells while worn (or words to that effect)? The first time I tried the armor on I did have a quick read of its history and stuff, but I discovered quite by accident that Imoen could wear it and still cast spells.
It does mentioned it in the beta, but I discarded it thinking that just looking at the Casting Failure rate line was enough. I probably forgot that there probably are players who don't use "Spellcasting in Armor" and "Armor Encumbrance" components.

 

Oh, one last thing: can anyone tell me if you get the Shadow Armor +3 and Spider's Boots of Stealth during the normal course of Chapter 2, or if you have to side with the Shadow Thieves (rather than Bodhi) in order to get them? I'd hate to only get hold of them while siding with the Shadow Thieves, since the items are too damn useful to miss out on, IMO.
I'm not going to change that.
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