Summoning Spells for V4

[Demivrgvs]

There so much to discuss on summons that I'm not even sure a single topic for all of them is enough.

BG creatures vs. PnP creatures
A common problem we'll have to face is that within BG many creatures:
* have inconsistent stats (e.g. the same creature may have different versions for no reason)
* don't match PnP creatures in terms of stats and abilities (e.g. BG Umber Hulks have only 6HD instead of PnP 8HD, but they have much more hit points than those HD would suggest, making them more or less behave as they should - other creatures have opposite or similar problems)
* have a really different power lvl compared to PnP (e.g. BG Greater Mummy is nothing more than a common 14HD mummy, PnP one can cast divine spells as a priest of at least 16th lvl).

Long story short, depending on which version of creature is used it could fit a very different spell lvl. In general I'll favor PnP over BG because PnP creatures tend to be better in many aspects (see aVENGER's works), and because I hope sooner or later between aVENGER, Wisp, and us, BG creatures will match that standard. That being said, I also have to keep an eye on the existing status quo, because having a summoned creature behave in a completely different way may cause a "mod added" feel which I really prefer to avoid.

Monster Summoning spells

As a general concept, MS spells should be more oriented towards summoning multiple creatures, thus favoring quantity over quality compared to other summoning spells of the same level.

As of now I tend to use xHD creatures for MSx spells, with a single x+1HD creature later on as a sort of "leader", but such feature isn't always viable (e.g. there are no Greater Carrion Crawlers), and it makes the whole balancing work much harder because the difference between a normal version and and elder or specialized version isn't "a fixed value" (e.g. the difference between a Baby Wyvern and a Wyvern is 1HD, but between a Fire Salamander and a Noble Salamander it's 5HD plus spellcasting abilities).

Now, I want to ask a very important thing, which is needed to define the concept behind the entire serie of spells. I was afraid of asking this because the answer I give to myself means I'll have to throw away my entire work for V3, but considering I'd like this version to be the last one I have to put everything on the table. The question is: which creature types fit this type of spells? The current V3 spells makes large use of humanoids creatures such as hobgoblins, and ogres, but I'm not sure they fit these spells as much as true "monsters" would. Using them probably allows to create more useful/different summons, because we have archers, shamans, mages, and so on, but conceptually I fear I did it wrong. What do you think?

Here' a table of all MS spells, and creatures which may fit each spell. Let me know your thoughts and eventual suggestions.

MSI: 1HD Gibberlings
MSII: (Kobold Commandos plus Shaman/Witch) --> ?
MSIII: (Hobgoblin Archers plus Captain) --> 3HD Carrion Crawlers
MSIV: (Gnolls plus Flind) --> 4/5/6HD Giant/Phase/Sword Spider
MSV: (Ogre Berserkers plus Magi) --> 5HD Wolfweres or 5HD Ettercaps or 5HD Myconids
MSVI: 6HD Baby Wyverns plus 7HD Wyvern or 6HD Displacer Beasts or 6HD Minotaurs or 6HD Otyughs
MSVII: 7 HD Wyverns
MSVIII: 8HD Umber Hulks (with 10HD Elder Umber Hulk?)
MSIX: 7-8HD Fire Salamanders (with 12HD Noble Fire Salamander?)

Animal Summoning spells

Here' a table of all AS spells, and creatures summoned by each spell. Let me know your thoughts and eventual suggestions.

ASI: 1HD Rats
ASII: 2HD War Dogs
ASIII: 3 HD Wolves
ASIV: 4HD Leopards
ASV: 5HD Giant Snakes
ASVI: 6HD Cave Bears
ASVII: 8HD Polar Bears

 

[Istfemer]

...there are no Greater Carrion Crawlers...

But there are!

You can use Crypt Crawler from BG1 as a "leader" for MSIII. Though it is not a P&P creature IIRC.

[Kalindor]

Here' a table of all MS spells, and creatures which may fit each spell. Let me know your thoughts and eventual suggestions.

 

MSI: 1HD Gibberlings

MSII: (Kobold Commandos plus Shaman/Witch) --> ?

MSIII: (Hobgoblin Archers plus Captain) --> 3HD Carrion Crawlers

MSIV: (Gnolls plus Flind) --> 4/5/6HD Giant/Phase/Sword Spider

MSV: (Ogre Berserkers plus Magi) --> 5HD Wolfweres or 5HD Ettercaps or 5HD Myconids

MSVI: 6HD Baby Wyverns plus 7HD Wyvern or 6HD Displacer Beasts or 6HD Minotaurs or 6HD Otyughs

MSVII: 7 HD Wyverns

MSVIII: 8HD Umber Hulks (with 10HD Elder Umber Hulk?)

MSIX: 9HD Fire Salamanders (with 12HD Noble Fire Salamander?)

 

Perhaps it's because I played BG more than PnP, but I like the demihuman summons. It gives me the feeling of conjuring my own little troupe of foot soldiers.

I am concerned that Carrion Crawlers at spell level 3 would be too effective with their stunning attacks and multiple attacks/round.

MSV ogres are fun but Myconids are pretty rare and also interesting.

MSVI doesn't need wyverns since you have them at 7. I like the Otyugh and Minotaur suggestion because they are both cool and somewhat underrepresented.

[Demivrgvs]

Humanoids within Monster Summoning spells

Perhaps it's because I played BG more than PnP, but I like the demihuman summons. It gives me the feeling of conjuring my own little troupe of foot soldiers.

Eh eh. As I said, gameplay wise they are cool, I would have not created them if I did not liked them, but concept wise I fear they would seem slightly out of place amongst all others "true monsters", am I wrong?

 

MSIII

I am concerned that Carrion Crawlers at spell level 3 would be too effective with their stunning attacks and multiple attacks/round.

BG's carrion crawlers for some unknown reason have thac0 12, but within PnP they have a very weak thac0 17, and their bite inflicts only 1-2 dmg. I could imagine to consider tentacles attacks as touch attacks (and thus grant +4 bonus to thac0), but I would need to test in-game the actual effectiveness of these creatures. On paper shadows and wraiths seemed outstanding, but then most players reported them to be underwhelming, who knows how good a creature with very little hit ponts and no dmg potential ends up being. I really only fear them within BG1, because later on they are really too fragile to pose a serious threat imo.

 

This reminds me one further problem of deciding which creatures assign to each MS spell: HD value alone isn't enough to determine a creature's power lvl. It is a good indicator, but creatures with the same HD value can have tremendously different powers. That being said, afaik I still believe we should tie xHD values to MSx spells, am I wrong?

 

MSV

Ogres are fun but Myconids are pretty rare and also interesting.

Yep, though I'm not sure how they would perform in-game. I think Ardanis voted for wolfweres because of the immunity to non-magical weapons, and I'd vote partially against ettercaps because their poisonous attack reminds me too much of MSIV's spiders, and their ability to set "traps" is difficult to implement, not to mention they seem too powerful on first sight.

 

MSVI

Doesn't need wyverns since you have them at 7. I like the Otyugh and Minotaur suggestion because they are both cool and somewhat underrepresented.

Problem is that BG's minotaurs are a real joke. Otyughs instead could be a slow but very though summon, with both a constrict and a disease on hit abilities.

 

Wyverns are this level because I love baby wyverns. LOL Jokes aside, I really couldn't find ANY alternative to fill MSVII, that's why wyverns are there too.

[F-man]

MSI: 1HD Gibberlings

MSII: (Kobold Commandos plus Shaman/Witch) --> ?

MSIII: (Hobgoblin Archers plus Captain) --> 3HD Carrion Crawlers

MSIV: (Gnolls plus Flind) --> 4/5/6HD Giant/Phase/Sword Spider

MSV: (Ogre Berserkers plus Magi) --> 5HD Wolfweres or 5HD Ettercaps or 5HD Myconids

MSVI: 6HD Baby Wyverns plus 7HD Wyvern or 6HD Displacer Beasts or 6HD Minotaurs or 6HD Otyughs

MSVII: 7 HD Wyverns

MSVIII: 8HD Umber Hulks (with 10HD Elder Umber Hulk?)

MSIX: 9HD Fire Salamanders (with 12HD Noble Fire Salamander?)

MSI: Gibberlings are OK

MSII: Kobolds are fine.

MSIII: Either one is OK to me.

MSIV: I personally really like spiders as summon for some reason so at least don't remove spider summoning spell.

MSV: I like Ogres as summon, they are giants so they are classified as monsters, right?

MSVI: Wyverns can be the summons on Level 7 so I would prefer Otyughs, some mod replaces Otyugh in Irenicus dungeon with improved version (Yochlol) so maybe something like that could be summoned at higher level if it's a PnP creature.

MSVII: Wyverns should be OK.

MSVIII: Umber Hulks sound interesting.

MSIX: Fire Salamanders are OK.

[Demivrgvs]

MSIV

I personally really like spiders as summon for some reason so at least don't remove spider summoning spell.

Sure thing, I like them, and the Web + Spiders combo is really too classic. My only doubt is how much they fit the "monster" stereotype, but I'm probably too strict.

 

MSV

I like Ogres as summon, they are giants so they are classified as monsters, right?

Yes they are. Within AD&D MS spells weren't nearly as strict as I'm suggesting them to be, and they indeed included spiders, gnolls, ogres, and so on.

 

Within 3E they added "celestial animals" to give good aligned casters something to summon, and Conjure Elementals were merged into Summon Monsters spells too for neutral casters. On one hand it makes sense, otoh I really dislike that. Leaving aside that I think "celestial animals" are a really poor choice, these spells should have been renamed "Summon Creatures" or something like that if they really wanted them to summon all kinds of creatures, am I wrong?

 

MSVI

Wyverns can be the summons on Level 7 so I would prefer Otyughs, some mod replaces Otyugh in Irenicus dungeon with improved version (Yochlol) so maybe something like that could be summoned at higher level if it's a PnP creature.

Yochlol are a very different thing, as they are powerful demonic handmaidens of lolth. Otyughs do have a greater version, the Neo Otyugh, a tougher and more intelligent version. Gameplay wise they should behave more or less as normal otyughs, but grappled targets should increase their AC (see here why). My concern is that a 9HD creature like that could be too much for a 6th lvl MS spell if 1-2 normal otyughs are summoned at the same time, but I may be wrong. Elementals obviously have better stats and tons of great qualities (e.g. immunity to charm, hold, poison, critical hits, non-magical weapons, etc.), but is a single 12HD elemental able to compete with 2x 6HD Otyugh plus 1x Neo Otyugh? Mmm...

[F-man]

Yochlol are a very different thing, as they are powerful demonic handmaidens of lolth.

My mistake. I don't remember the name they used in that mod but I saw the same sprite in IA that had Yochul.

 

Conserning the balance between Otyuhs and Elementals: Shoundn't it be fine, both have their own special qualities and as you said and Elementals have more of them and better HD but few Otyughs survive better if used as cannon fodder and are more effective against a lots of weaker enemies (if those enemies also have magical attacks that is, otherwise elementals are better).

[Ardanis]

but is a single 12HD elemental able to compete with 2x 6HD Otyugh plus 1x Neo Otyugh? Mmm...

It doesn't have to. Elementals dominate monsters by individual power and the ability to stay on the battlefield for many times longer. But monsters make up for that with their numbers, and should be able to overwhelm a single elemental.

[Demivrgvs]

but is a single 12HD elemental able to compete with 2x 6HD Otyugh plus 1x Neo Otyugh? Mmm...

It doesn't have to. Elementals dominate monsters by individual power and the ability to stay on the battlefield for many times longer. But monsters make up for that with their numbers, and should be able to overwhelm a single elemental.

You do have a point, but assuming you have convinced me about this, let's see if you can remove another doubt of mine then.

 

Is it fine to have MVI scale with caster level while Conjure Elemental does not? It makes balancing them more difficult because either MSVI is weaker early on, or better later on, if not both (which is actually what happens imo as 2x Otyughs are clearly worse than a 12HD elemental while adding the Neo Otyugh makes MS the slightly better choice imo). Perhaps I'm too much meticulous?

[Ardanis]

Elementals' duration keeps growing, no? Not all areas have a wizard sitting in ambush with a readied Banishment. Quite often summoning five elementals is better than five individual MS VI castings.

[Demivrgvs]

Elementals' duration keeps growing, no? Not all areas have a wizard sitting in ambush with a readied Banishment. Quite often summoning five elementals is better than five individual MS VI castings.

Mmm, so you'd point on increased duration to make elementals keep up when MS spells get more creatures? Not sure it's enough, but it makes sense considering elementals are also more likely to survive longer enough for that duration to matter.

 

Btw, two things have a huge impact in this whole discussion imo, summoning cap, and Banishment.

- If the summoning cap remains (*) than the obvious appeal of elementals is that albeit more expensive you can have a more powerful army. Without the cap cheap mass summons such as MS could get really out of control imo, especially considering (like you said) not all opponents will have Banishment to counter dozens of summoned creatures (side note - V4 will give Banishment to clerics too, as per PnP, but until DavidW comes back SCS clerics won't use it). This is the main reason for which I consider a summoning cap mandatory.

- Allow a save to negate Banishment is going to play a big role too (I'd really go for it, obviously using -4 penalty, maybe even -6). On one hand mass summons such as MS have the advantage of having more creatures and thus the chance of some of them making the save, otoh summon's HD/power will finally play a role, making a powerful creature more likely to survive a Banishment than a lesser being.

 

(*) If you ask me, the only "unrealistic" part of the summoning cap is that it puts a cap to party's summons regardless of how many casters there are. I mean, having a caster unable to maintain control over more than a few creatures makes sense, it's something I'd expect, but having Edwin unable to cast his first summon because Viconia has 5 skellies around doesn't make sense instead.

 

Long story short, if it wasn't an incredibly tough task (perhaps doable via scripts, but still hard), I'd make the summoning cap limit the amount of creatures a single caster can have. In theory it should also take into account the HD of creatures imo (e.g. controlling 5 Gibberlings is one thing, controlling 5 Wyverns is another story), but that is asking really too much I guess.

[Kalindor]

I usually play without the summoning cap. I do not believe using excessive numbers of summoned creatures is particularly effective in many situations. Granted, I usually have 2 casters, a thief, and 1-3 warrior types. Perhaps if I used more casters, the number of summons would really start to become absurd...

 

Would it be possible to implement a (higher-level) spell that, instead of banishing enemy summoned creatures, took control of them instead?

[Demivrgvs]

Summoning Cap

I usually play without the summoning cap. I do not believe using excessive numbers of summoned creatures is particularly effective in many situations. Granted, I usually have 2 casters, a thief, and 1-3 warrior types. Perhaps if I used more casters, the number of summons would really start to become absurd...

The problem isn't what I or you usually do, but what can be done in general.

 

Allowing to summon tons of Gibberlings wouldn't be a problem (a single Fireball can easily wipe out dozens of them), actually for low level summons it would be better to not have a cap (or at least not as low as the current one), but allowing to run around with an army of elementals is more problematic imo.

 

Would it be possible to implement a (higher-level) spell that, instead of banishing enemy summoned creatures, took control of them instead?

Well, Mass Domination will do that. Though not all summons are vulnerable to mind affecting spells, for example all undead ones are not.

 

Animal Summoning spells

Let's start to discuss these too. In general AS spells fill almost the same role as MS spells, but they are the most "basic" summons around, with almost no special qualities or abilities. Thus the effectiveness of summoned animals relies on numbers, even more than summoned monsters already do, and druid's ability to heavily boost them with dedicated spells such as Magic Fang and Animal Growth.

 

We really don't have many animals to choose from, so my current list wasn't that hard to write down, but I still have many doubts about ASI and ASVII, and to a lesser extent about ASIV.

 

ASI: 1HD Rats?

ASII: 2HD War Dogs

ASIII: 3 HD Wolves

ASIV: 4HD Leopards

ASV: 5HD Giant Snakes

ASVI: 6HD Cave Bears

ASVII: more powerful bears?

 

Animal Summoning I

Rats do have a few unique properties, such as a disease attack, but in theory they should be part of a swarm to really work (speaking of which, I now realize that vanilla's 90% physical resistances assigned to the rat form was probably inspired by that). As a swarm, rats would be almost immune to physical damage and hit each round (much like a summon insect spell), but as a single creature it's just a tiny creature with almost no hit points, and terrible thac0. The only way to vaguely make it work like a swarm and make its pathetic thac0 have a small chance to hit something is to give them a 'swarm' bonus (similar to gibberling's mob attack or wolf's pack bonus), and then hope a +1 bonus per rat is enogh. Have you a better idea?

 

Btw, should rats be immune to disease? I was thinking of a nasty Stinking Cloud + rats combo. Makes sense imo, and I like combos which involve different party members.

 

I also thought to use small spiders instead, but they fit AS spells less imo, and the small spider animation still look like a giant spider compared to how small normal spiders should be. Anyway, spiders too should be part of a swarm to matter.

 

Animal Summoning II

Not much to say here. It would be interesting to implement somehow their PnP tracking/scent ability, and turn them in a sort of druid's Detect Invisibility, but I'm not sure I like the idea of dogs making nearby opponents visible, do you?

 

Animal Summoning III

Pretty much V3 dire wolves with one HD less. For some reason I forgot to document their V3 'pack' ability (+1 to thac0 for each wolf within the pack) but that is what makes them shine imo. I'd be tempted to add PnP trip ability if it didn't shared sleep opcode.

 

Animal Summoning IV

V3 dire leopards with three HD less. Their leap/charge attack isn't particularly game changing, but it's a pretty decent creature, and once improved with druid's buffs it should perform well. No?

 

I also thought to use panthers instead of leaopards, because of their hide in shadows ability. But while I'm going to suggest adding a 2x backstab multiplier to its KR's version when used as an animal companion (for the Beastmaster ranger it would be perfect imo), I don't feel comfortable enough to do so for common panthers, should I?

 

Animal Summoning V

One of the new entries. I like that it adds some variety, and its poison attack can be nasty. I'd dare to suggest granting them immunity to Entangle and Grease (something else?) because it makes sense, and it allows to create combos like Web+Spiders.

 

Animal Summoning VI

V3 dire bears with four HD less, but you'll be able to summon more of them (e.g. 4 instead of 3). I'm thinking to give them a "grapple" ability.

 

Animal Summoning VII

I don't know what to do here. The only animals more powerful than 6HD bears are 7+HD bears! That being said it's probably not a big deal considering all Conjure Elemental spells pretty much work this way (aka 6th lvl spell uses higher HD elemental of 5th lvl spell). Any better suggestion?

[Kalindor]

. Any better suggestion?

 

Moose!

[Lawlight]

Animal Summoning I-VI

I pretty much agree with your picks.

 

Animal Summoning VII

I don't know what to do here. The only animals more powerful than 6HD bears are 7+HD bears! That being said it's probably not a big deal considering all Conjure Elemental spells pretty much work this way (aka 6th lvl spell uses higher HD elemental of 5th lvl spell). Any better suggestion?

Displacer Beasts. I know they are normally 6HD creatures, but their powers could fit to this spell level very well (Displacement -> 50% chance misschance against them) and they operate in packs too. There are pretty cool animations for them out there (IA) and you could also expand their concept with what you've planned for pathers -> aka Hide in Shadows + Backstab. They could be a bit out of place in comparison to the other standard animals, but on the other side the highest level Animal Summoning spell deserves something outstanding. Yet another bear would be a bit boring imo. Furthermore, I think they do not fit the Monster Summoning spell much, because they are no monsters they are beasts - magical ones - but still beasts.