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Question/Suggestion: post-Sarevok in EET


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#31 subtledoctor

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Posted 22 April 2018 - 04:17 AM

I think it's cut content? Based on unused dialogues in the game, re-added by the Unfinished Business mod.

I don't think it's similar to thinking two Chinese people must be related.
- Kara-Tur has about 0.01% the population of China, so it is several orders of magnitude less outlandish on its face.
- There's no air travel, much less movement of people around the world.
- Traveling to the frontier following a family member is a pretty classic story, especially in Westerns. Seems like the devs were leaning toward using this trope.

Is there some canon source of information about Tamoko/her father?

Faiths & Powers: Spell spheres and kit pack for priests and paladins
Might & Guile: Tweaks and kits for warriors and rogues
Scales of Balance: Game tweaks and rule overhauls
NPC_EE: More options for NPCs in BGEE, SoD, & BG2EE


#32 Roxanne

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Posted 22 April 2018 - 09:03 AM

I think it's cut content? Based on unused dialogues in the game, re-added by the Unfinished Business mod.

 

 

I made a thorough research about Tamoko in the vanilla games - including unused stuff - as well as respective mods.

I cannot find any relationship between Yoshimo and Tamoko. If someone knows of any in-game source, please let me know.

 

I know of a lot of fan discussions and an abandoned Tamoko mod project that had this idea, but that is not material to be used.Also, there is some fiction that makes her a Ninja-type warrior of stuff, all unrelated to what is really in the game.

 

Facts so far

- she is a neutral-evil human cleric level 10.

- she appears in BG1 final chapter 3 times to face the protagonist and finally pleas that Sarevok's life be spared

- Protagonist either kills her before entering the Bhaal temple or convinces her to leave peacefully (the latter requires some stats from the protagonist to trigger - her remaining story for this option is never told in the game and it is here that my mod would start from.)

- she lost Sarevok's love earlier already when he favours Cythandria

- Sarevok's diary mentions her as a cruel priestess especially effective to extract information from captured followers of Bhaal and Cyric

 

She is never again mentioned in BG2.

 

She only ever appears in ToB Sarevok epilogue

*he journeyed to Kara-Tur to bury his one true love, the warrior Tamoko.* - This line is as doubtful as many other examples in ToB that seem to have no real connection to the earlier game parts.

- Tamoko was no warrior

- she was not his *one true love* as he had already left her when you first meet her.

- it is not even sure that she died or that Sarevok would know where or when, and even though, where would he have found her remains etc. If at all, you can accept this line in a spiritual sense, Sarevok in the end discovers that Tamoko would have been his one true love and he journeys to Kara-Tur to *bury* her memory rather than anything physical.


The Sandrah Saga!

another piece of *buggy, cheesy, unbalanced junk*

 

 

 


#33 bob_veng

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Posted 23 April 2018 - 04:28 AM

Good analysis. 
 
I see it a bit differently:
 
The doubtful tob line is not so doubtful when looked in context of how the narrative follows from one instalment to another - its clearly another one of those canon elements.
 
When calling the line doubtful (false? narratively unreliable?), and thus supposedly probing it for truth-value you must look at it from a cannon-setting perspective: that which comes after is always canon, and that which came before and is non-comforming to the current canon becomes superseded. That means its not doubtful that Tamoko died. She *certainly* died when you killed her in the Undercity... just like its certain that you didnt kill Dynaheir on sight, in her pit (i sometimes do :undecided: ). 
 
This is an hard problem for EET. It cant be mentally put out of the picture because to fix the discontinuity while respecting the canon in its proper interpretation (Tamoko died means that Tamoko died at that time in the undercity, not on some other, random, arbitrary occasion) there simply must be an intervention. If you didnt kill Tamoko discontinuity arises. The canon doesnt account for the alternate scenario of you keeping her alive, and since EET wants to promote continuity, this line must be removed from ToB.
 
However there is certain dramatic value to it, and simply deleting it is slightly too unconservative for EET. What if you did kill Tamoko? Then you shouldnt be deprived of this sort of conclusion.
Now you might say that even if you were deprived of it it wouldnt be a loss because the line is almost gibberish and doesnt gel with your past experience, its a narrative glitch that can go away.
However id disagree there. The line is not necessarily discoherent. I find it acceptably continuous with the canon scenario. Namely:
 
  • maybe Tamoko was envisioned as a warrior (F/C, F>C...) by her writer, and the "implementer" forgot to give her warrior levels, or it was deemed that a relatively high-level F>C would feel like too much of a boss fight prior to the actual boss fight, so they decided that she should, in line with Winsky, just serve the purpose of building up to the climax and not pose a tactical challenge. In fact i've always imagined tamoko as some kind of a warrior-woman, so that part of the line is just a little bit bothersome. To me it's mostly "legitimate".
  • Tamoko can be Sarevok's true love even if he left her, because that's how the concept of true love works. Ostensibly Sarevok left the reliable and ever-loving Tamoko for the reckless "evil woman" witch Cythandria, and that might have had a major part in his downfall. This part is totally "legitimate" to me. It may be interpreted in various ways but has narrative weight, and can't be dismissed.
  • Sarevok knows that she died because you killed her and he learned it from you. Or he learned it in a supernatural way while he was dead. This part is more implicit because it would be too much to have had an in-game dialogue in the 2001 ToB since many players wouldn't have known or remembered Tamoko's significance. ToB was also rushed. So just a single line in the epilogue was considered sufficient in order to make a "formal" nod to continuity with the original game, i guess. This issue is not critical anyways.
 
So...the solution:
 
In the Tamoko mod:
  • the "dubious" epilogue line should be removed
  • if you killed Tamoko there should be a conversation with Sarevok, near the end, where you will learn that: he somehow knows you've killed her (or you will tell him); she was his true love, not Cythandria (doesn't need to be mentioned explicitly, but should maybe be implied); that he mourns her and eventually he will journey to Kara-Tur to bury her.
OR
  • if you didn't kill her, she should have a romance with Sarevok, and should not die due to "canon" (not canon any more in EET) reasons
also...
  • tamoko is F/C, or a C(10)>F(11) dual, that seems more interesting, also it's legal

Edited by bob_veng, 23 April 2018 - 05:00 AM.


#34 subtledoctor

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Posted 23 April 2018 - 06:17 AM

I mean, Tamoko fights, she makes war, and quite competently. (If my reading if the very first cut-scene in the game is correct, Sarevok would not have been successful in his assault on Gorion if Tamoko wasn't able to strip Gorion's defenses.) So she is certainly a warrior in the general sense, if not necessarily in the technical AD&D sense.

In fact all AD&D clerics are designed in the warrior-priest mold of Charlemagne's knights... bashing heads in with maces or war hammers while calling upon God for favor, etc.

So we are left with the facts that 1) someone named Tamoko was an integral and intimate part of Sarevok's operation when he reached the zenith of his ambitions; and 2) there is a real line written by the real writers of the real game indicating that "Tamoko from Kara-Tur" was his beloved.

The Yoshimo thing seems to be something that was contemplated as a (perfectly reasonable IMHO) explanation for how he ends up on the Sword Coast and associating with people interested in Bhaalspawn. But nothing official.

But still, who cares? Make your mod how you like it. Change that TOB line, if necessary. Add a PID to Yoshimo where you can ask him if he is related to Tamoko and give him options to respond "yes actually, she's my sister, following her is how I got mixed up with Bhaalspawn" or "dude what are your talking about, that's racist." If the former is chosen, give him an interjection with Tazok to ask if he knows what happened to her.

 

Or not! It doesn't really matter, do whatever you like. :)


Edited by subtledoctor, 23 April 2018 - 09:06 AM.

Faiths & Powers: Spell spheres and kit pack for priests and paladins
Might & Guile: Tweaks and kits for warriors and rogues
Scales of Balance: Game tweaks and rule overhauls
NPC_EE: More options for NPCs in BGEE, SoD, & BG2EE


#35 Roxanne

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Posted 23 April 2018 - 07:14 AM

Looks to me that somehow all doubts or hindrances for Tamoko are easily solved. Nothing except that epilogue line exists about her between BG1 end and ToB end in the vanilla game.

I agree with subtledoctor that *warrior* is a generic term not a class and applies to a fighting priestess just as well.

 

Even mentioning her death and burial does not imply any event in the game at all. If you read the whole contents StrRef 73926, it is told that after about 20-30 years of restless wandering, i.e. something like 30 years after ToB end, Sarevok goes to Kara-Tur. This could even be true if Tamoko was still alive when the game ends and died at some time in that period..

 

Solved, I would say.

 

However, to make the new mod as compatible as possible with modded EET and since

Spoiler
, I take the Sarevok Friendship and Sarevok Romance mod into account as well and come up with a storytelling that makes all these mods appear as an entity.


Edited by Roxanne, 23 April 2018 - 09:19 AM.

The Sandrah Saga!

another piece of *buggy, cheesy, unbalanced junk*

 

 

 


#36 AWizardDidIt

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Posted 23 April 2018 - 09:54 AM

Tamoko is a character who has a really strong conceit that personally resonates with me but she's so barely sketched beyond it it gives you a lot of freedom. I of course always would encourage you exercise creative freedom to do whatever else you want with her because there's going to be just about nothing in the game to contradict you. The Yoshimo-sister angle could be interesting but it also doesn't really add anything to her character so since it sounds like you consider that non-canon, I think ignoring it is perfectly fine.

 

However, to make the new mod as compatible as possible with modded EET and since

Spoiler
,

 

I'm glad for that.

Spoiler

 

I think it also makes sense to add in a conversation with Sarevok in ToB where you reveal what happened to Tamoko and have that reflect on Sarevok in some way.  Maybe a conversation earlier on while he's still Chaotic Evil where he dismisses that connection but if you alignment change him later on he admits guilt and a sense of responsibility over it and possible realization that she was the only person who showed actual true love towards him in his life and that was part of the reason he pushed her away. (just an idea anyway :) )


Edited by AWizardDidIt, 23 April 2018 - 10:07 AM.


#37 Roxanne

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Posted 23 April 2018 - 10:02 AM

Tamoko is a character who has a really strong conceit that personally resonates with me but she's so barely sketched beyond it you can kinda do whatever with her. 

 

However, to make the new mod as compatible as possible with modded EET and since

Spoiler
,

 

I'm glad for that.

Spoiler

 

I think it also makes sense to add in a conversation with Sarevok in ToB where you reveal what happened to Tamoko and have that reflect on Sarevok in some way.  Maybe a conversation earlier on while he's still Chaotic Evil where he dismisses that connection but if you alignment change him later on he admits guilt and a sense of responsibility over it and possible realization that she was the only person who showed actual true love towards him in his life and that was part of the reason he pushed her away. (just an idea anyway :) )

Like said earlier, there are already 2 Sarevok mods out there. I plan to be compliant with those. There is a Tamoko/Sarevok topic in Sarevok Romance, that is sufficient. All types of redemption are covered by what exists.

Spoiler


The Sandrah Saga!

another piece of *buggy, cheesy, unbalanced junk*

 

 

 


#38 AWizardDidIt

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Posted 23 April 2018 - 10:10 AM

Ah, I didn't know about the other Sarevok mods. One less thing for you to worry about then.



#39 Kaliesto

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Posted 24 April 2018 - 12:34 AM

Indeed correct it seemed like the characters were speaking in past-tense when I was reviewing the dialogue, so to be able to fit the mod in wouldn't be so hard knowing that information. This in turn actually leaves a interesting window for other modders to play around with that one day.

 

Especially the City of Baldur's Gate, that has not seen much modding action. I remember this one group on SHS wanted to add a brand new area that involved the statue but I don't know anything became of it.



#40 Roxanne

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Posted 24 April 2018 - 01:04 AM

Indeed correct it seemed like the characters were speaking in past-tense when I was reviewing the dialogue, so to be able to fit the mod in wouldn't be so hard knowing that information. This in turn actually leaves a interesting window for other modders to play around with that one day.

 

Especially the City of Baldur's Gate, that has not seen much modding action. I remember this one group on SHS wanted to add a brand new area that involved the statue but I don't know anything became of it.

Most likely you refer to some project about *Balduran's Sea Tower*?

For many years, every six months or so you see some discussion about it, so no telling how alive or dead that idea is.

 

PS - In EET I added my small Corwin mod, that lets her appear prior to SoD and she can join you after you met Scar on the bridge. She adds some content to BG City in later chapters concerning Iron Throne vs Flaming Fist and the internal struggle in the Fist when Angelo takes over and other related stuff like savin Eltan and gathering those not being blinded by Sarevok/Angelo.

Also one of the large episode mods (BG1RE or BG1UB, not sure which) has recently added more events to the City chapters of BG1.


Edited by Roxanne, 24 April 2018 - 01:07 AM.

The Sandrah Saga!

another piece of *buggy, cheesy, unbalanced junk*

 

 

 


#41 Kaliesto

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Posted 24 April 2018 - 01:16 AM

Oh wow I know I've read somewhere that BG1 still had content to be unearthed, but that is cool they're still finding stuff! Still wish Black Isle left some kind of documentation, who knows what else they had planned.


Edited by Kaliesto, 24 April 2018 - 01:19 AM.


#42 Lem Icebear

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Posted 20 May 2018 - 11:46 PM

The Sword of Chaos mod is released meanwhile. Links are on EET mod list or here https://baldursexten...rld.com/Tamoko/.

You don't need Tamoko joining you to get the delayed transition feature but it's a nice addition.





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