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#31 Scythesong Immortal

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Posted 20 January 2004 - 05:52 AM

Still, I think a conflict with Drizzt would be nice (it could even happen with the NPC's first meeting with Drizzt) and it would give people a hint as to how powerful Haer really is. But like I said, it shouldn't end in bloodshed (so on with Drizzt VS Bodhi) like nothing happened except progression (errr, degradation?) with Haer-PC relations. It could even be used to spice up the sibling-Haer plot.
Or maybe it won't.

I understand banter for other outer-planar places does loom heavily should one be made for ToB, maybe except for the Shade Lord since there's an excuse there somewhere. :D
The Planar Sphere would be something else, though, since among other things it provides a possible connection with Sigil.
This is the only other place I remember that would be implicated, though.
Other extra-planar occurences seem to be based on single individuals and creatures, but I think Haer doesn't have to give mention on most of them.

I'd like to argue about Blades not being among the best swordsmen game-wise since they're among the top contenders for the spot. With Tenser's they can become fighters of the same level (and unfortunately there aren't level 15 fighters in mid-SoA and level 23 fighters at late-SoA).
So Haer becomes roughly a fighter with less attacks per round than the normal one and lower saves, but he can buff himself with mage spells! With spells from the Transmutation school (which serve to correct and enhance his ablilities to match and even outpower that of a pure fighter's) and his innate Offensive Spin, rounded off by protections a very angry Haer can be very dangerous.
In ToB, considering that Haer can summon up to a maximum of 5 Mislead images to sing their Enhanced Bard Song for him, you get a very, very overpowered NPC - or party, for that matter. :D  Not including UAI and the exotic trap HLA's.
Please forgive my insolence. I don't mean anything but that Haer comes from a class that is a top contender for the most overpowered class in existence, so he's something like Sola himself, only that he doesn't have high MR, Dimension Door and the +5 Moonblade. (No offense to Weimer, but the potential +20 to THAC0, AC, +25 to MR and, immunity to stun, hold and confusion and normal weapons does weigh heavier)
And Haer's a unique Blade.

I must admit that I'm a bit selfish. The Blade is my favorite kit, but few people tend to recognize that Blades, and even Bards, are powerful at all. Somehow I suspect this tendency is because of D&D impressions, but I'm not one to judge.
But the fact is that they are, though ony for a limited time, but then again fighting doesn't happen all the time.
HD is my favorite character since he's a blade, he's fun, he's powerful, he's interesting, and a CN (excellent personality).
The fact that Haer is interesting shouldn't be the only reason why people should bring him along - functionality should be the main reason. But because of certain factors this functionality is not at all apparent.

Let's just say my biggest wish is that this romance would not only enhance Haer's personality, but give people a better insight on the power of the Bard class, specifically the Blade kit.
Everywhere I go Bards and Blades have been the subject of too much prejudice when monks are put into pedestals and worshipped like gods (in a manner of speaking).
I hope it succeeds where I have tried too many times, and failed.

#32 JPS

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Posted 20 January 2004 - 09:20 AM

Well, I'm a huge blade fan myself, so I see your point. But Drizzt still won't come anywhere near a mod that I'm working on  :D

It's possible that we do something else that shows just how powerful bards can be, but I don't really know if it's necessary. Anyone who has ever had Haer'Dalis in their party should know what he can do in a fight.

As for extra-planar incidents, I can't really think of anything else either (except for the small trip to hell at the end of SoA, but since all romanced characters comment on that anyway it doesn't really count).
"It is difficult to imagine a gibberling social structure. It can be roughly compared to the social structure of lemmings throwing themselves into the sea, or of a school of pirhana in a feeding frenzy. There is no sense, no organization, and no individuality. Though they clearly have a primitive means of communicating among themselves, they have no discernable language."

#33 Scythesong Immortal

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Posted 20 January 2004 - 01:49 PM

I'm not expecting anything. You're the modmasters, after all.
:D
I don't like the idea of Haer having too many encounters as well. So I'll just be crossing my fingers that undead Haer doesn't act like the typical Bioware NPC-undead who charges into the fray with only its fists. :D

Just trying to get some ideas off me, I think. Anyways, I see your point also. I hope you don't mind the occasional blabber I put on every once in a while?   :D

#34 JPS

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Posted 20 January 2004 - 01:57 PM

Not at all. This is a discussion forum after all, so it seems kind of natural to discuss things.  :D

And discussing things usually helps me get my thoughts in order, since they tend to be a bit disorganised. Having to write something that someone else is supposed to understand only does me good.
"It is difficult to imagine a gibberling social structure. It can be roughly compared to the social structure of lemmings throwing themselves into the sea, or of a school of pirhana in a feeding frenzy. There is no sense, no organization, and no individuality. Though they clearly have a primitive means of communicating among themselves, they have no discernable language."

#35 Meira

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Posted 25 January 2004 - 01:18 PM

How much tought have you guys given to what sort of flirts this romance should have? The standard set by the flirtpacks or something groundbreaking? Of course I'm not suggesting that you should invite the wheel all over again.

Assuming that the romance will have different paths - are the flirts set's going to be different from each other depending the tone of the romance? Same set for the start naturally, but as the different paths break off should there be different tone to the flirts as well? Will the flirts the PC initiates (or how you react to ones initiated by the bard) have any effect on the course of the romance?

Also while player is probably able to choose one flirt option for number of times (hopefully with variety of possible results) what about the sweet bard? I liked the idea applied to Solaufein flirtpack on construction: that all flirts initiated by him should be one time only. It means more work naturally but should be more rewarding for the player.

Overall I would imagine that Haer'Dalis would start off hitting the PC much more 'aggressively' than the male consorts so far.

-Meira

Edited by Meira, 03 February 2004 - 05:14 AM.

Ihmeellinen meri

Kummalliset kalat liukuvat syvyydessä,
tuntemattomat kukat loistavat rannalla;
olen nähnyt punaista ja keltaista ja kaikki toiset värit -
mutta ihana meri on vaarallista nähdä,
se herättää tulevien seikkailujen janon:
mitä on tapahtunut sadussa, on tapahtuva minullekin.

- Edith Södergran



Amber - The BG2 NPC Mod Project Now released!
Amber's discussion forum at Gibberlings 3

#36 JPS

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Posted 25 January 2004 - 02:12 PM

Actually, I was thinking of something groundbreaking  :D

The standard flirtpack options (with some variation of course) are more or less given, but I have been thinking about something along the lines of the Planescape: Torment dialogues, where you can talk about things that have just happened, opinions about other party members and so on.

Now, I'm not a programmer or anything, but this should be possible to do with the flirt pack code as it is (as long as it's done at the same time as the ordinary flirts, otherwise they would apparently end up overwriting each other. But since it would all be in the same mod, it shouldn't be a problem. I hope).

I'm still thinking about this (but I actually came here to write a post about this in the hidden forum, so I'm almost done thinking), but there should at least be options like "Tell me about Sigil", "I want to talk about acting" or "Tell me a story", which would, as far as I understand, work like normal flirts, except that the actual responses would probably have to be one-time.

And I would really like to have dialogue options that depend on what's happening in the game, like "Do you think it's a good idea to side with Bodhi/the Shadow Thieves?" or "What is your deal with the shopkeeper in the Bridge District?", but I suppose I should give Barren Fischa (who will have to actually code these things) a chance to stare at me in horror before I promise it will actually happen.  :D

I haven't thought too much about how the different paths will affect the flirts, but yes, it's possible that some of them will be different.

I haven't thought about whether the flirts should affect the outcome of the romance either, but the way we are planning to handle the different paths it's possible at least in theory. It might end up making things too complicated, though, so we'll have to see about that.

Also while player is probably able to choose one flirt option for number of times (hopefully with variety of possible results) what about the sweet bard? I liked the idea applied to Solaufein flitpack on construction: that all flirts initiated by him should be one time only. It means more work naturally but should be more rewarding for the player.


This sounds like a good idea, and I don't think it would be that much more work, really. It seems likely that some of the Haer'Dalis initiated flirts will probably be poems, and those would have to be one-time anyway. And now that you got me thinking about it, it would be nice if some flirts were triggered by certain locations, like Haer'Dalis buying the main character flowers in Waukeen's Promenade. Or turnips from some Jansen or another. Turnips are sooo romantic.  :D

Er... but this is of course things I would like to do. On the other hand there are the things we have to do, like actually finishing the mod while there are still people playing the game, so anything may of course change.

I'll start a thread for flirt suggestions when I've posted this, by the way, so all ideas are welcome.
"It is difficult to imagine a gibberling social structure. It can be roughly compared to the social structure of lemmings throwing themselves into the sea, or of a school of pirhana in a feeding frenzy. There is no sense, no organization, and no individuality. Though they clearly have a primitive means of communicating among themselves, they have no discernable language."

#37 Meira

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Posted 26 January 2004 - 01:22 AM

I'm still thinking about this (but I actually came here to write a post about this in the hidden forum, so I'm almost done thinking), but there should at least be options like "Tell me about Sigil", "I want to talk about acting" or "Tell me a story", which would, as far as I understand, work like normal flirts, except that the actual responses would probably have to be one-time.

And I would really like to have dialogue options that depend on what's happening in the game, like "Do you think it's a good idea to side with Bodhi/the Shadow Thieves?" or "What is your deal with the shopkeeper in the Bridge District?", but I suppose I should give Barren Fischa (who will have to actually code these things) a chance to stare at me in horror before I promise it will actually happen.  :wink.gif

Great minds think alike, huh?

I hope that's possible coding wise since that's a feature that have been planing to use in my little project (to be able to ask variety of questions from the NPC). Then again I think you will be able to ask questions from Cailean at FFP via the force talking, so it *should* be doable.

I don't know if those should be one time only answers in case that the player would want to talk about them again later - especially if there is a number of sub-options to be chosen from (like in Torment). Maybe just the topics should be altered after the first time you pick them (if possible): 'Tell me again about Sigil', 'I want to talk some more about acting', 'Could you tell me that story of X again' ect.

-Meira
Ihmeellinen meri

Kummalliset kalat liukuvat syvyydessä,
tuntemattomat kukat loistavat rannalla;
olen nähnyt punaista ja keltaista ja kaikki toiset värit -
mutta ihana meri on vaarallista nähdä,
se herättää tulevien seikkailujen janon:
mitä on tapahtunut sadussa, on tapahtuva minullekin.

- Edith Södergran



Amber - The BG2 NPC Mod Project Now released!
Amber's discussion forum at Gibberlings 3

#38 Bibbi

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Posted 26 January 2004 - 01:40 PM

I like this idea, too.  Something to consider, though it might mess with the normal lovetalks, would be a conversation or two where the PC must initiate the talk.  say, for example, that she and Haer had been discussing something and he broke off, not wanting to talk anymore, like about an old love of his.  then, he won't start a lovetalk until the PC force talks him, confronting him about their previous conversation.  this would most likely be a one time topic mixed with all the flirts and repeating comments.  that might be too complicated, but i think it would add to the sense of participation in the romance.  doing this would mean that we'd have to have explicit instructions/warnings in the readme that the player will have to talk to haer sometimes

#39 Dancer Fitz

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Posted 26 January 2004 - 03:35 PM

Perhaps you could set it up so the HD talk screen pops up, but instead of dialogue there is narration of what the PC has noted - that HD has been avoiding her/silent/sulky/whatever, then there are options for how the PC could choose to address him.
Yar.


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#40 Meira

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Posted 27 January 2004 - 03:00 AM

There could be a timer for that - sort of back-up thing to prevent the romance from getting stuck. So if player does not force talk Haer in certain time frame the dialogue window you mentioned would pop up. Perhaps you should still get an option to just ignore him for now for couple of times at least.

Player could feel that she/he is in charge for once. You know usually romances just roll forward with or without your approval (assuming that you don't want break up with your love.)

-Meira
Ihmeellinen meri

Kummalliset kalat liukuvat syvyydessä,
tuntemattomat kukat loistavat rannalla;
olen nähnyt punaista ja keltaista ja kaikki toiset värit -
mutta ihana meri on vaarallista nähdä,
se herättää tulevien seikkailujen janon:
mitä on tapahtunut sadussa, on tapahtuva minullekin.

- Edith Södergran



Amber - The BG2 NPC Mod Project Now released!
Amber's discussion forum at Gibberlings 3

#41 Meira

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Posted 28 January 2004 - 11:37 AM

Will you expand Haer's character outside the romance? Add banters or talks with male PC? Interactions with non-party NPCs?

Of course this would not be main priority, but if you (or anyone) happen to get an idea for something would you be totally against of adding it?

Not that I can think of anything at the moment but you never know...

And in order not to totally go off topic from romance wishlist... I would like to see NPCs commenting the romance in non-conflict ways. I would imagine that Imoen would have something to say and that Viconia would be at least amused. Certainly others too would find PC taste of men peculiar. :D

-Meira
Ihmeellinen meri

Kummalliset kalat liukuvat syvyydessä,
tuntemattomat kukat loistavat rannalla;
olen nähnyt punaista ja keltaista ja kaikki toiset värit -
mutta ihana meri on vaarallista nähdä,
se herättää tulevien seikkailujen janon:
mitä on tapahtunut sadussa, on tapahtuva minullekin.

- Edith Södergran



Amber - The BG2 NPC Mod Project Now released!
Amber's discussion forum at Gibberlings 3

#42 JPS

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Posted 28 January 2004 - 12:02 PM

If we decide to do the non-romantic flirt options (telling stories, talking about the planes and so on) I see no reason why they shouldn't be available to male PCs as well. But then again, I don't really know how these things work, technically.

At the moment, I'm working on interjections from Imoen (because she's your sister. And she doesn't really say much in SoA), Jaheira (because she's suspicious of Haer in their banters) and Viconia (because, well, just because), as well as from Aerie (but she's a bit of a special case, because of the Aerie-Haer'Dalis romance) and I will probably do Keldorn, Jan and Mazzy as well, because I have some kind of general idea of what they could be saying (and really, who wouldn't want to hear Jan's opinions on their relationship?).

For the rest of the NPCs, I either don't know them well enough or I have no idea what they would say.
"It is difficult to imagine a gibberling social structure. It can be roughly compared to the social structure of lemmings throwing themselves into the sea, or of a school of pirhana in a feeding frenzy. There is no sense, no organization, and no individuality. Though they clearly have a primitive means of communicating among themselves, they have no discernable language."

#43 Windguardian

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Posted 02 February 2004 - 10:06 AM

How much though have you guys given to what sort of flirts this romance should have? The standard set by the flirtpacks or something groundbreaking? Of course I'm not suggesting that you should invite the wheel all over again.

Assuming that the romance will have different paths - are the flirts set's going to be different from each other depending the tone of the romance? Same set for the start naturally, but as the different paths break off should there be different tone to the flirts as well? Will the flirts the PC initiates (or how you react to ones initiated by the bard) have any effect on the course of the romance?

Also while player is probably able to choose one flirt option for number of times (hopefully with variety of possible results) what about the sweet bard? I liked the idea applied to Solaufein flitpack on construction: that all flirts initiated by him should be one time only. It means more work naturally but should be more rewarding for the player.

Overall I would imagine that Haer'Dalis would start off  hitting the PC much more 'aggressively' than the male consorts so far.

-Meira

hmmmmmmm I like agressive! *grins*

#44 Meira

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Posted 03 February 2004 - 03:18 AM

I understand that there was a bunch of quests planned to Haer'Dalis, but cut out of the final game. Will you be adding those (maybe not with first release, but later) Unfinished business style? Or will his quests be added in the actual Unfinished business mod?

If you will, were those romance only quests or will they be available to all?

Needles to say that I would like to get more of Haer in all aspects. :D

-Meira
Ihmeellinen meri

Kummalliset kalat liukuvat syvyydessä,
tuntemattomat kukat loistavat rannalla;
olen nähnyt punaista ja keltaista ja kaikki toiset värit -
mutta ihana meri on vaarallista nähdä,
se herättää tulevien seikkailujen janon:
mitä on tapahtunut sadussa, on tapahtuva minullekin.

- Edith Södergran



Amber - The BG2 NPC Mod Project Now released!
Amber's discussion forum at Gibberlings 3

#45 JPS

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Posted 03 February 2004 - 04:49 AM

Yes, there were two Haer'Dalis quests that were cut from the game. At least one of them will be restored in some future version of Unfinished Business (the other one requires a new area, I think, so that might be more difficult). It will not be directly connected to the romance, but since I am writing the quest (slowly) and Barren Fischa is going to code it (when he comes back), I wouldn't be surprised if conects to the romance somehow. :D

The actual quest will appear in Unfinished Business, though, and becuse of the "slowly" and "when he comes back" parts, it may take some time. But that goes for the romance as well, I suppose...

Edited by JPS, 03 February 2004 - 04:50 AM.

"It is difficult to imagine a gibberling social structure. It can be roughly compared to the social structure of lemmings throwing themselves into the sea, or of a school of pirhana in a feeding frenzy. There is no sense, no organization, and no individuality. Though they clearly have a primitive means of communicating among themselves, they have no discernable language."



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