Haste and Slow

[kreso]

.I do not like it (as well as I don't like that Slow doesn't halves apr 1 to 1/2, or that Haste doubles the frequency of repeating EFFs, etc.) but I cannot do anything because those opcodes are hardcoded. IF DavidW could make SCS detect Slow/Haste status in a different way I would gladly fix/tweak the spells.

I think this can be tweaked. SCS checks for STATE_HASTED in several conditions:

 

1) main dispel block (has about a dozen other checks (Death Ward, Imp.Invis, Bless, Chant yada yada, so it isn't crucial here)

 

2) fighters drinking potions of speed if not hasted already (I don't think they have more than one, so it's irrelevant - the only inconvience would be if they're affected by mage casting haste around (rarely happens), but given potions are indispellable with IR I'd say it's a valid buff)

 

3) demons (controled by timer, not statecheck - thus it's irrelevant if statecheck is true or false)

 

4) Mellisan - this could be an issue I'm afraid.

 

The only check she has is this:

IF TRIGGER

!StateCheck(Myself,STATE_HASTED)

THEN DO

Action(SpellMyselfTimer,WIZARD_HASTE,haste,18|100|100)

END

 

I'm afraid this could lead to her constantly spamming Haste onto herself, since statecheck would always be false. Never the less, I'll test it out - if I'm wrong. I don't know if she has limitless amount of it, if she has a valid spellbook I'd say let's try.

Think more about this, how about this solution:

 

a) leave the Haste spell as it is

b) hide the spell spwi305 in spell selection screen

c) create a new Haste spell with +x movement, apr, whatever other effect you want and make it available to players as level 3 spell

d) tweak speed potions to do the same

e) done!

P.s.) f) when people complain about enemies benefiting more make sure you tell them that there's a bunch of permanently hasted creatures in the game already! And you can poison them so they take double damage from it!

This would open up a whole new regeneration balancing world.

 

One other issue is how to balance Improved Haste without Haste opcode. My idea (crazy but still) - make level 3 Haste a single-target spell (make it also last a bit longer for balance- 2 turns), and make level 6 Improved Haste a Mass Haste, giving it an AoE.

 

EDIT:

Apperantly, Mellisan would Haste herself every 3 rounds (ad infinitum, she has special script) if not Hasted already. This would mean that if spell would work the same for AIs and PCs Haste should either last so short or duration should be "refreshed" when re-cast (this is what happens in latest beta). Mellisan also has a +6 casting speed bonus, thus she would be able to cast it instantly.

Personally, I'd simply tweak HER to have a "permanent Haste" effect on herself (there are characters in BG1 with this effect, why not end boss? ). That way she'd never use the spell in the first place.

[Scourge]

 

.I do not like it (as well as I don't like that Slow doesn't halves apr 1 to 1/2, or that Haste doubles the frequency of repeating EFFs, etc.) but I cannot do anything because those opcodes are hardcoded. IF DavidW could make SCS detect Slow/Haste status in a different way I would gladly fix/tweak the spells.

 

Personally, I'd simply tweak Melissan to have a "permanent Haste" effect on herself (there are characters in BG1 with this effect, why not end boss? ). That way she'd never use the spell in the first place.

 

A la sarevok in BG1 pre-totsc

[kreso]

A la sarevok in BG1 pre-totsc

Right. Now where is CrevsDaak?

[Jarno Mikkola]

 

A la sarevok in BG1 pre-totsc

Right. Now where is CrevsDaak?

Ahh, who needs him ? We got Crevs Daak, and it all.

[Demivrgvs]

I'm strongly against giving players a different spell resource, especially with noticeable different effects.

 

You have analyzed how SCS detects Haste state to either dispel it or re-cast it, but what about Slow? Does SCS check for it and eventually counter or re-cast it? For both cases, does it ever use Haste&Slow to counter each other?

 

Before even thinking to tweak Haste&Slow I would have to be 100% sure that those state checks can be "ignored", and I would be surprised to find out they are not important.

[kreso]

I'm strongly against giving players a different spell resource, especially with noticeable different effects.

 

You have analyzed how SCS detects Haste state to either dispel it or re-cast it, but what about Slow? Does SCS check for it and eventually counter or re-cast it? For both cases, does it ever use Haste&Slow to counter each other?

 

Before even thinking to tweak Haste&Slow I would have to be 100% sure that those state checks can be "ignored", and I would be surprised to find out they are not important.

Tbh, I don't feel as tweaking Slow is so important as Haste. Likewise, it's fairly improbable to see a mage having both:

a) 2x slow memorized (none on my install - they need Remove magic here + offensive + usually random disable - Charm or Slow + something defensive if low-leveled like Ghost Armor. Higher level mages seem to completely ignore it alltogether, in favor of more Remove magic/Pro Fire/Cold.)

Liches usually have no slow memorized at all. All Rakshasa have 1x Slow and 1x Haste. In addition, on SR install, mages love Lightning Bolt at 3d level. The only creature which has 2x Slow memorized is Abazigal in dragon form.

b) choosing the same target.

 

Finally, it's AoE anyway.

 

Even if it did happen, what's the worst outcome? As it works - if the target is already under effect of Slow, duration would simply be refreshed. Seems valid enough, even if one is very unlikely to witness it happen.

 

Mellisan is "special" case here as well. She has two checks - one for herself for Divine Cleansing when she purges bad things off her and one for her Symbol:Slow.

This both check for STATE_SLOWED (and Symbol would set it, since it uses slow opcod. This spell is on a timer - and the timer is set to 30 seconds. Effects last only 2 rounds, and it can be ignored since no other creature has access to it (it can slow spellcasting for all I care, and SR hasn't touched this spell anyway).

 

AI doesn't counter Haste with Slow and viceversa.

There's no check for STATE_SLOWED (myself) apart on Mellisan (and she'll use her Divine Cleansing if Slow affects her THAC0/AC anyway, even by a single point! Perfect!)

 

Fwiw, I already tweaked them locally. No AI faltering so far. I only need to check dragon behaviour, but if it works out fine I don't see the problem.

Not only that, but now Haste actually always adds exactly one attack, not +1/2 if one has x/2 attacks per round, which makes me very happy.

 

Oh, and just checked - Melissan already is permanently hasted, her statecheck for haste is irrelevant - it is always true.

[Demivrgvs]

Mmm...very interesting. It may be worth trying it out, at least during a beta, and see how they perform.

 

The benefits for Haste would be:

- no longer doubles the effects of regeneration and poison effects

- no longer doubles the frequency of repeating EFFs

- always adds exactly one attack, not +1/2 if one has x/2 attacks per round

 

You say we don't need to tweak Slow but while we may even like the 2x casting time penalty (I probably don't, but it's ok I guess) I do think that it should affect creatures with 1 apr while it currently doesn't. Btw, does Slow affect repeating EFFs too? That would be a big thing imo.

[kreso]

The benefits for Haste would be:

- no longer doubles the effects of regeneration and poison effects

- no longer doubles the frequency of repeating EFFs

- always adds exactly one attack, not +1/2 if one has x/2 attacks per round

 

You say we don't need to tweak Slow but while we may even like the 2x casting time penalty (I probably don't, but it's ok I guess) I do think that it should affect creatures with 1 apr while it currently doesn't. Btw, does Slow affect repeating EFFs too? That would be a big thing imo.

The only "problem" if you wanna call it such is the apr limit which won't ever go above 5 (only WW and GWW HLAs would go above).

Now, with so many different Grandmastery tweaks, the score would be something as this (level 13 fighter with grandmastery):

- non-modded GM - 5/2 max - Haste would make it 7/2

- BG2 Tweaks GM - 9/2 max - Haste would make it 5 (+ 1/2) - given how True GM is broken, I don't care honestly (and you'd still be getting other spell benefits like AC, saves, MS)

- KR GM - 4 attacks max - Haste would make it 5 - perfect!

 

Hence my idea of making level 3 Haste spell a single target (longer lasting however) buff and it's level 6 counterpart a Mass Haste (this would have a side-effect of nerfing summons, which is good imo).

I'll check out for repeating eff.

[kreso]

Btw, does Slow affect repeating EFFs too? That would be a big thing imo.

Yes, it does.

[Salk]

If we want to treat Haste and Slow as opposites (and I am in favor of it) then the latter should not slow casting unless haste hastens it or...?

[kreso]

If we want to treat Haste and Slow as opposites (and I am in favor of it) then the latter should not slow casting unless haste hastens it or...?

Yeah, I'd also rather if it didn't. This can be done only be removing the slow opcode from the spell. Haste doesn't affect it (it would be rather crazy if it did ).

[CrevsDaak]

If Haste and Slow are made single target, Mass Haste and Mass Slow should use the same stats (not more bonuses/penalties) IMO.

 

And to remedy the detection of Haste and Slow... Maybe using opcode 282 with stat 155 helps for Haste (I think normal Haste effects aren't applied this way). I don't remeber the stat Slow changes.

[Demivrgvs]

If we want to treat Haste and Slow as opposites (and I am in favor of it) then the latter should not slow casting unless haste hastens it or...?

I'd love to "fix" this inconsistency, but it appears that I cannot touch slow opcode. Apr opcode cannot help us because "set apr 50%" doesn't really work. The only thing that would work is -1/2 apr, but that means 50% apr penalty for non-warriors, and only 15-20% penalty for the intended targets.

 

If Haste and Slow are made single target, Mass Haste and Mass Slow should use the same stats (not more bonuses/penalties) IMO.

Mmm...a single target Haste spell could still perform extremely well imo (right now it's kinda OP for its spell lvl depending on party composition), but Slow as a single target spell would be utterly useless imo. Just compare it to other disabling spells of similar levels and you'll notice they either have much harsher effects and/or large AoE.

 

Note: 5th edition made Haste single target (1 turn followed by 1 round of fatigue), no effect spellcasting. Slow is still a "mass" spell (albeit limited to up to 6 targets) and it does affect spellcasting. I don't like the spellcasting inconsistency at all, but at least we can say "it's as per PnP"!

 

And to remedy the detection of Haste and Slow... Maybe using opcode 282 with stat 155 helps for Haste (I think normal Haste effects aren't applied this way). I don't remeber the stat Slow changes.

Interesting...though Kreso is already testing a "Haste without haste opcode" and it seems to work fine. I'm waiting for him to check dragons.

[CrevsDaak]

 

If Haste and Slow are made single target, Mass Haste and Mass Slow should use the same stats (not more bonuses/penalties) IMO.

Mmm...a single target Haste spell could still perform extremely well imo (right now it's kinda OP for its spell lvl depending on party composition), but Slow as a single target spell would be utterly useless imo. Just compare it to other disabling spells of similar levels and you'll notice they either have much harsher effects and/or large AoE.

 

What if you take away the save from Slow, and give it a fixed duration (1 turn for example, and do the same with Haste, as you've said)?

[Demivrgvs]

If Haste and Slow are made single target, Mass Haste and Mass Slow should use the same stats (not more bonuses/penalties) IMO.

Mmm...a single target Haste spell could still perform extremely well imo (right now it's kinda OP for its spell lvl depending on party composition), but Slow as a single target spell would be utterly useless imo. Just compare it to other disabling spells of similar levels and you'll notice they either have much harsher effects and/or large AoE.

 

What if you take away the save from Slow, and give it a fixed duration (1 turn for example, and do the same with Haste, as you've said)?

Then Slow would become almost OP imo. Fully removing a save from a disabling spell makes it HUGELY more powerful, that's why PW:Blind is such a high lvl spell. Just an extreme example: no save Slow could be used on an ancient dragon with 100% success, effectively halving both melee and spellcasting prowness for a prolonged time (10 rounds is a lot of time).

 

I've added a similar power to Flesh to Stone, and the only reason I think it can be balanced (albeit I'm still waiting to get more feedback on this spell) is because it's a 6th lvl spell (big difference compared to 3rd) and it lasts very few rounds (for full petrification the spell still requires a save).