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Slayer Mod - coming ... err, sometime!


m452shakespeare

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Hi all!

 

I posted a few days ago asking for help with a planned Mod. Just to detail more of what I have planned, garner suggestions etc etc.

 

When I played BG2 the first time, there was something that disappointed me - the absence of interaction with the Bhaal essence after the dream where you learn to become the Slayer at will. I always felt that the Slayer should be like a bad conscience, always prodding you to follow the Evil path. But nothing. Oh sure, people mentioned you being the Child of Bhaal, but the evil that was supposed to be a part of you never showed its face again ....

 

Then there was the fact that, quite honestly ... the Slayer was a bit of a wimp! My fighter, not yet even with high level abilities, had as good an armour class, hit just as often, and had more hit points, so why bother with the Slayer power? In fact, on later run-throughs, I only ever used the power twice - both times in the Illithid city, to open two doors.

 

So, the Mod has two main parts :

 

1/ upgrading the Slayer to make it worthwhile using, and

 

2/ more interactions with the Slayer/Bhaal essence, both for the PC and, if present, Imoen and Sarevok.

 

Anyway, that's the plan. So, first I'll make the 'Slayer more powerful' part of the Mod. I'll start by changing the two parts that make you the Slayer - the spell used to power your change (Spin823, and I believe Spin822 when the change first occurs), and the item it creates as your weapon (slayerwp), giving you perhaps four different variations on the Slayer, depending on experience points, the last one being the Ravager. I intend the Slayer to be AT LEAST as powerful as the strongest fighter with the best weapons available at a given point in the game (roughly - since some people do ALL the side quests whilst others don't, and people play with different party sizes, it can never be too precise) so that it IS tempting to use the Slayer form in a tough or important fight.

 

Amongst other things possibly planned for the Slayer :

 

1/ better THAC0

2/ more damage per hit

3/ better AC

4/ improved resistances (at least equal to the Greater Wolfwere from the Shapeshifter Rebalancing mod)

5/ lasts longer (so that it's worth using in a long, drawn-out fight)

6/ weapon resistances (+2 weapons to-hit for the weaker two Slayer types, +3 weapons for the more powerful two types)

7/ immunity to death magic and mind-control

8/ POSSIBLY using a version of the insta-death hit from the Silver Sword

and/or

9/ POSSIBLY allowing the Slayer to bypass 'immunity to magic weapons' spell effects - so that you don't waste limited time if an enemy casts it after/just as you change to the Big S. (Not sure you can code for this - I'll see).

 

Part 2 is less planned so far, but may include

 

1/ 2 or 3 more dreams before Spellhold, where you talk to the Essence within you. Possibly, if you agree with 'his' suggestions, you get added innate abilities (all death related) but lose Reputation. For these dreams I'll use the Temple of Bhaal area from BG1 (where you kill Sarevok).

2/ More interactions with Imoen. Including the Slayer offering to 'power up' Immy if she's behind you in exp. (BUT if you accept, it may change her alignment from NG to N)

3/ More interactions with Sarevok in ToB.

4/ Slayer interjections at certain points in the game, or when speaking to certain NPCs - for example, Firkraag, Galvarey, possibly the demons in the Abyss (Planar Sphere quest), the Demon Lord (Ust Natha), etc. MAY include one-off Slayer transformations (and be honest, doesn't the idea of transforming to the Slayer to show Galvarey exactly WHAT he's trying to get rid of fill you with glee?).

5/ More encounters - Knights etc who know you as the murderer of the Iron Throne leaders, NOT Sarevok; relatives of those killed by Sarevok (if he's rpesent); bounty hunters; supernatural beings wishing to exploit the power of the Slayer, or destroy it; former Bhaal worshippers, both alive and Undead.

 

All in all, a challenging Mod for a first-timer!! :)

 

Anyway, that's the plan. Now I have a gamesave just after the Slayer Dream, I can start testing my item and spell changes to see if they work, before coding the 'different Slayer per exp total' part.

 

If any of you have comments you wish to make, or suggestions, please go ahead and make them - I'll see what I can do.

 

Wish me luck!

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SixOfSpades has offered at PPG a good idea about having different versions of Slayer for different classes.

 

Also, rather than increasing it's strength as PC gains experience, I'd instead allow for better control over it. Say, low-level PC can only as much as open the door in illithid lair, while >6M XP char can stay in Slayer form for several turns and never go berserk.

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Yes, I saw it at the time.

 

But there's a problem - unless the Slayer form is a BIG improvement for a fighter type, someone like a bard ends up with a Slayer form that is a lot better FOR THEM, but still weaker than a fighter like Minsc/Korgan/Sarevok, so why bother? Let the fighters take the risks. Then there's, for instance, druids - with the Shapeshifter Rebalancing mod (which I ALWAYS install), a Slayer would have to be VERY powerful to be a temptation for a Shapeshifter, but for a standard druid, not nearly so good. Which then leaves me making a separate set of Slayers for separate KITS, not just classes! That's a hell of a lot of Slayer forms!

 

And to be honest, if you do all the secondary quests and get the XP, then the Slayer isn't, in my opinion, actually that powerful. I've had fighters which, by the time you get to the Underdark, have a better THAC0 and better armour, more hit points and nearly as many attacks. By the time fighters get Crom Faeyr, the Silver Sword, the Flail of Ages +5 etc etc, the Slayer becomes totally redundant. It only has 100 hp, the THAC0 can be equalled by a level 16 fighter with Gauntlets of Ogre Might, a +3 weapon and Mastery of the weapon class - basically, the vanilla version might be useful in the Underdark, but by the time you hit Suldanessellar, with planning, your fighters will surpass its effectiveness - taking out an Adamantine golem with one hit of the Silver Sword (Minsc), or a Grandmaster of hammers with Crom Faeyr wading in (Korgan with up to THAC0 of -15 .....)

 

With high level mages, they can have thirty or more offensive spells - Abi Dalzim, for example, having no upper damage limit, nor does Skull Trap, so mages that I play cast their spells first, and by the time they've got through their offensive spells, the fight's usually over - especially if they have wands to use. So I want the Slayer to be powerful enough to tempt mages that still have all their high-level spells available.

 

I agree about having the Slayer form for longer, I'm undecided about HOW long. I'm also undecided about losing control or not - I don't want to just copy chunks of 'Ascension' code/ideas .....

 

Anyway, we shall see. I'll go ahead and code the Slayer improvements first, then make them available to see what people think - overpowered, underpowered, useful, not useful, whatever - and take it from there.

 

I can't find any way to bypass Protection from Magic Weapons (for fighter/cleric typers p@@@ed off by enemies using it just as they Slayer Change) so until you get wands of breach in ToB, you'll have to make do. But I WILL code the Slayer doing more damage and possible instant death as per the Silver Sword/Axe of the UNyielding/Ravager (halberd) -the Slayer's supposed to be Death Incarnate, let it BE Death Incarnate!

 

Anyway, thanks for all the deas/suggestions/comments - keep 'em coming!

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the slayer has great resistances/immunities and regeneration (faster than the rings). Some of those are hard or impossible to get for any pc, while the slayer gets them without buffing (so they're permanent and you can add more). And maybe even some previous equipment bonuses apply! Comparing it to the shapeshifter rebalancing is silly, as that mod makes shapeshifters overpowered.

In the Slayer form you get:

25 str. - You now have 5 attacks/round THACO of -7, and a damage of about 20-30 plus 2 cold damage, which slows the opponent. This is cumulative!

25 dex. - This time you get -10 AC bonus plus the dex. bonus

18 con. - It means this time that you get 100 HP(always)

 

You get immunity to charm, confusion, hold, (stun?), level drain, maze, imprisonment.

You get 40% of magic resistance.

 

Almost all of that is achievable for a late game pc with the best gear, but that's it, for a late game pc that did all the major side quests. If you do them after the Asylum or miss some of the equipment, the form is a very formidable option. For tob an improvement would be helpful.

 

An appropriate improvement would be some kind of aura of fear, maybe a chance of hp or level drain, disease/poison.

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It all boils down to what order you do things in - which is going to be EXTREMELY difficult if not impossible to cater for. All I can do is repeat - when I play, I only ever use the Slayer form twice, in the Illithid city. Other than that, I find it pointless, which to me is a real disappointment. Maybe it's because I do all the sidequests before going to Spellhold (since there's no real reason not to), so I'm pretty high-level by the time I get the Slayer form.

 

Currently, is the Slayer that much better than you can achieve with your equipment and potions and speel buffs? If not, how often will you use it?

 

That's the point behind the Mod - the Slayer should be powerful enough that it's ALWAYS tempting to use, for example against the Baalor in the Svirfneblin village (I tried that soloing with the vanilla Slayer, and got hammered!). I disagree with you when you say the standard Slayer is powerful enough - I find it too weak for me to to want to use it much, or even at all. I want players to always have it in the backs of their minds - 'use the Slayer, it'll make the fight so much easier!'

 

As for what powers/abilities to give it, I'm always rethinking what I'm going to do - I'll probably tone down the AC and damage and THAC0 bonuses, but still have them.

 

As for having separate Slayer forms for different classes - the way I see it, different classes will get different bonuses from being the Slayer :

 

Fighters, Paladins, Rangers - minor benefits to AC, THAC0 and damage dealt, but weapon and elemental resistances and spell immunities that they can't otherwise get

Clerics/Druids - low elemental resistance bonuses (and AC bonus for some), but pretty good spell immunities and fighting bonuses

Mages - low spell immunity gains, low to medium elemental resistance gains, but high fighting benefits

Thieves - high benefits all round

 

So everyone can gain from becoming the Slayer, including fighter types.

 

Anyway, while I'm here, may I wish you all a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year!

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Base creature imo should be the same for all classes/levels of control. Also, instead of polymorphing into a different CRE, I'd use a magical weapon that would change the appearance and carry other effects. This way the Slayer will benefit from equipment and doesn't have to become -20 AC god mode.

 

When transformed, PC's hitpoints are increased by 5 base HD of the class, so a wizard gains +20, and a barb gains +60. All ability scores are increased by 4. PC becomes immune to charm, hold, stun, sleep/unconsciousness, level drain, poison and disease, receives +10% MR and their base AC is set to -6. PC can attack with claws twice per round, as if they were proficient with it. Each attack deals 1d6+5 of piercing damage, plus STR bonus, plus 1d8 magical damage (fewer enemies have resistance to it).

 

After PC has transformed into Slayer, after 4th round they start taking damage each round equal to 10*2^(round_passed-1) - twice as much as in vanilla. This damage cannot be resisted (it's done via setting resistance to 0 for zero duration prior to applying the damage opcode). If PC remains in Slayer form longer than one turn, they're killed instantly.

 

As PC grows in experience, they obtain better control over the Slayer. These upgrades occur at 2.5M, 4.5M and 6.5M XP:

1) can remain in Slayer form for 2 turns, starts taking damage each round after 1 turn (5*2^(round-1))

2) can remain in Slayer form for 4 turns, starts taking damage each round after 2 turns (5*round), no death

3) can remain in Slayer form for 5 turns, no damage, no death

Additionally, different classes receive other specific bonuses.

 

Fighters & Barbarians & Fallens Paladins/Rangers:

1) warrior's +1 apr bonus

2) grandmastery in claw (simulated via bonus thaco/damage/apr/speed factor)

3) use innate abilities

 

Thieves:

1) detect traps and illusions

2) hide and backstab

3) use thieving skills, use innate abilities

 

Bards:

1) use innate abilities

2) can use Howling, aka custom bard song - dunno about the effect, fear is obvious though

3) cast spells with +3 casting speed penalty

 

Priests:

1) turn undead

2) cast spells with +3 casting speed penalty

3) cast spells with +1 casting speed penalty, use innate abilities

 

Wizards & Sorcerers:

1) cast spells with +3 casting speed penalty

2) cast spells with +1 casting speed penalty

3) no casting penalty, use innate abilities

 

Druids:

1) no casting penalty, use innate abilities

2) turn into Slayer 2/day

3) turn into Slayer 3/day

 

Monks:

1) +1 movement speed, +1 apr

2) +1 movement speed, all attacks become stunning

3) +1 movement speed, +1 apr, use innate abilities

 

Paladins & Rangers - no upgrades, unless they've fallen.

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Well, the first draft is done - I'm testing it now, by using the PC/Slayer for target practice! :)

 

As I said, it's upgraded from the vanilla form, to make it more tempting to use. Changes are :

 

1/ starts taking damage on round 9, not 4 - makes it a lot more usable!

2/ AC -11 (from -10 - not much change)

3/ THAC0 -10 (from -7, so it does hit a bit more often against tough opponents

4/ +5 damage bonus and cold damage 1d4 not 2 (so average damage 26 per hit, against 20.5)

5/ 10% chance per hit of save vs death at -2 or die (as per Silver Sword, but less often)

6/ 150 hit points (as against 100, so less vulnerable to tough enemies)

7/ additional immunitites : poison, disease, blindness, feeblemind, petrification, disintegrate, wail of the banshee, maze and timestop

8/ resistances - 50 resistance to fire, cold, magic fire and cold, electricity, acid

 

so all in all, it hits harder, has many more immunities and resistances, and stays around for longer in a fight. Fighter types will get immunities and resistances they normally can't get, clerics/druids will get better h-t-h and (for druids) AC, while mages get some reistances/immunities they can't spell for, and hit considerably harder.

 

Its not unbeatable - I just tested it a few times against the 3 mindflayers just north of where you enter the Underdark, and once nearly got killed by INT drain - but it did last long enough to kill all 3. I'm going to test it against the Baalor next - trying the vanilla Slayer a few times, I kept being killed. Let's see how the new version does!

 

The more powerful versions will add more damage, better THAC0, more hitpoints, higher chance of instant death, and increase resistances. Immunities will remain the same. The Ravager (the last form) will get immunity to wing buffet and knockback. They will all stay around longer, too.

 

One new tactic has already raised its head - change to Slayer as another mage in the party casts Timestop, then the Slayer charges in and spends 2 rounds hitting without reply. If the mage casts further Timestops, then it gets better still .....

 

++++ EDIT ++++

 

Well, I tried both the vanilla version and my version against the Baalor in the Svirfneblin village :

 

vanilla - won 3, lost 2

mine - won 5, lost 0

 

all solo.

 

I think I may reduce the resistances to elemental damage, but leave the rest, and make sure the Slayer's immune to paralyzation - i.e. anything that affects the Slayer's body internally to immobilise it don't work, but external factors such as Web still take effect.

 

Then there's Beholders. I'm sure I once tried the vanilla version and got the spell/item dispelled. Id so,do you agree that should happen? Or should I make both the spell (Spin823) and the item (slayerwp) undispellable?

 

Let me know what you think.

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Well, technically transforming into a slayer is not a spell but more like an ability. So there should be no way for anything to counter that transformation other than the pc. In addition to that, the transformation itself is of deific origin so there should be only a few creature in faerun to prevent the transformation.

 

If I remember correctly, a mod (fixpack, if I'm right) covered the slayer transformation, making it more formidable than that of the vanilla one. Try checking it out, it might give you valuable insights.

 

Oh yeah, If I may suggest, try removing the reputation penalty when transforming. Personally I think its quite annoying :)

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Thanks for that. I agree, it should be pretty much impossible for anyone to suppress your Slayer ability - Irenicus couldn't do it when he stole your soul, so why should beholders? I need to double-check that, but ....

 

A mod affecting the Slayer? Do you know which one? The only one I can see is Ascension - and I agree, this part of my mod won't be compatible with it, though the extra dreams, conversations and encounters should be.

 

The Reputation loss is supposed to represent you turning more evil. There's the Virtue mod, which would mean losing Virtue, not Reputation, but it might be awkward coding to allow for it (I don't know, I'm not an experienced coder yet ...) Maybe a tweaked version of my mod catering for virtue, to be installed if you intend using that mod? I'll think about it.

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A bit more testing done -

 

Vs Adamantine Golem

vanilla slayer - 0/6

my slayer - 4/6 (2 of them instant death hits!)

 

not unbeatable, but quite a bit better.

 

Vs the Black Dragon in Suldanessellar -

 

vanilla - 0/6

my slayer - 0/6

 

it's the stoneskin that stops me doing much damage, dammit!

 

So, a couple of questions for you all :

 

1/ the vanilla Slayer does 2 points of cold damage - should it stay the same, or should the extra damage be changed to something else? If so, what - magic cold, magic damage? And should the extra damage be resistable?

 

2/ high level summonings (planetars, elemental princes, (devas?)) cast Dispel Magic when they hit - should the Slayer?

 

Changing these would make some fights easier, though not all.

 

As for enemies using Protection from Magic Weapons - all you can try to do is to wait them out with the new duration ....

 

I've also added immunity to Spin823 (the innate spell that changes you to the Slayer) being dispelled, after the Black Dragon did it a few times without me noticing that I was no longer the Slayer ....

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Okay, the actual Slayer forms and weapons seem to be working okay. I've dcided not to have the attacks cast Dispel when they hit - I managed to kill the dragon with sustained attacks so there's no need.

 

I'll stick with the extra damage being magical damage - 2 points for standard Slayer forms, 3 for the Ravager.

 

There are a couple of oddities - which I think occurred with the vanilla Slayer - sometimes when you leave an area you change back to your normal form, even though the transformation hasn't expired. Also, if you change back before yo9u take damage, when the time comes that you WOULD have taken damage, you get the sound effect and reaction for being hurt - which can disrupt spellcasting, for example. I'm not sure what I can do about these, though.

 

For the Ravager form, I need to find out how to make you appear as the Ravager, not the smaller Slayer form. I'll look at Ascension for clues.

 

Also, I need to decide whether to have the possibility of going berserk, also as per Ascension. Any views on that, people?

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Please note that you are taking on these dragons one on one, but most people will have a party of NPCs as well. Wouldn't that mean that these dragons become too easy with these upgraded slayer/ravager forms? Game balance is still important even if you are supposed to be all-powerful.

 

With regards to going bezerk.

At some point it needs to become rather unprofitable to change into the slayer. It can be accomplished by adding in the inability to control it (going bezerk), but you can also make the slayer change slightly less powerful if it has been used 'too recently'. Kind of like adding a counter into the game and if it has not expired yet, you do not change into the upgraded slayer, but a slightly less powerful one (perhaps the vanilla one).

Or you could add a chance to get different polymorph effects. Give it 50% to change into vanilla slayer, 30% into a slightly better one and 20% into the fully upgraded one (percentages are an example of course).... and change the percentages when you upgrade to the Ravager or something.

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And that's the problem with coding something like this - catering for all types and builds of party. Of course, if you have a large party, then each person will have fewer experience points, so the Slayer form will be less powerful. After all, in my most recent game, by the time I got to Suldanessellar I had about 5 million exp, with just me and Immy. If I'd have three companions all the way through, that would have been maybe 2 to 3 million. So if I code the medium form at 3 million, the strong form at 5 million and the Ravager at 7 million, a PC with a large party will have a long wait to get them.

 

I might simply try dropping the 'instant death' effect, and perhaps replace with regeneration. Or just keep the insta-death at 10% chance rather than increasing it with each form.

 

Anyway, apart from power-level tweaks, all I have to do now is decide about 'berserking', get the Ravager transformation coded, and actually get the power levels coded .....

 

Okay, got the Ravager transformation done - fairly simple once I found the correct way to change your outer form ... (using the CRE file for the Slayer).

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If I may suggest, why just not follow the Ascension's footsteps with regards to the transformation? It seems quite balanced enough.

 

With regards to the transformations, I would recommend just basing the transformation with the pc's level. I think It would be fairly easier and balance that way.

 

Also, I don't think the insta-kill would be of much use since with Ascension's slayer transformations, the pc would be dealing quite a hefty amount of damage. In addition, It doesn't seem likely that while in slayer mode, you could insta-kill a dragon or some equally menacing foe. However, If you really want to have the ability to insta-kill while in slayer, might I suggest to pattern it to the ability 'deathblow' or 'greater deathblow' or better yet, with 'smite.' You could try to limit this ability to 'humanoids' by playing with opcodes like 'set melee effect' or the like.

 

I would go with Iroumen with able to prolong slayer change and less chance to berserk with level. It would greatly raise the ability's usability. I still think removing the reputation penalty plausible since reputation does not reflect the pc's fall to the dark side.

 

Anyway, these are all just suggestions. I wish you luck with your mod! :thumbsup:

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