Auto-leveling characters?

[subtledoctor]

Jesus, what a bunch of nay-sayers! God forbid players might want to, I don't know, modify their games to suit their tastes. No, no sir. Everything must always be exactly the same, every playthrough, all the time. Everything must be set in stone and never changed again!

 

That's the second time in as many days that I've raised an issue about how to possibly do something, and the response from forumites has been simple discouragement rather than discussion and brainstorming. Have I been mistaken in assuming that this entire frickin' forums is here to discuss modding the games?

 

Cripes.

 

Thanks @argent77 at least, for actually contributing useful information rather than useless negativity.

[Jarno Mikkola]

Sorry to ask, but how did you subtledoctor come to the throwaway conclusion that we are bunch of neight sayers ?

Cause fluent for example just proposed completely contrary state of affairs...

 

It was more or less along to ... "How about a character with high level" ... that can for exxample be Baeloth, that gets a head start on the player... say be a 10th to 15th level char while the player is a level 1 to 7 char... and he also saidthat he liked this in the FF game, where that was the case.

 

Baeloth in my eyes could actuially be made this way too... we level him up to say the 15th level, then give him say 30 000 000 xp, yes 30 million XP... and then set his xp "gain rate" (via opcode #104, parameter 2= 2, parameter 1= 0.1 ) to so low that he only gets to be around the 15th level... and he is kinda stuck there like a duck in a strong current... for a while. Or was that 10... anyways, I have done some of that in the far past, and I know it can be done.

Edited January 5, 2018 by Jarno Mikkola

[fluent]

It was more or less along to ... "How about a character with high level" ... that can for exxample be Baeloth, that gets a head start on the player... say be a 10th to 15th level char while the player is a level 1 to 7 char... and he also saidthat he liked this in the FF game, where that was the case.

 

Baeloth in my eyes could actuially be made this way too... we level him up to say the 15th level, then give him say 30 000 000 xp, yes 30 million XP... and then set his xp "gain rate" (via opcode #104, parameter 2= 2, parameter 1= 0.1 ) to so low that he only gets to be around the 15th level... and he is kinda stuck there like a duck in a strong current... for a while. Or was that 10... anyways, I have done some of that in the far past, and I know it can be done.

 

I'm just wondering how it would affect the balance. In the example of Final Fantasy Tactics, when you recruited said character, the battles become tougher after that point, obviously accounting for the fact you had a higher level character with you. I'm not sure how the scaling or encounter stuff works with BG, but I do remember hearing that the higher level your characters are, the possibility that encounters spawn tougher creatures, right? At least, I heard that about BG2, not sure about BG1.

 

It was just a thought I've had for awhile now. In RPGs these types of characters often join your party and they have to be written away to explain why their powers have been sapped. Or some character that has a back story of being some powerful mage but is a level 2 wizard on the character sheet. I'd like to encounter some evil necromancer who actually *was* powerful, that type of thing is too rare in RPGs. But the game balance would have to be balanced still.

 

Just my 2 cents on that specific thing I mentioned. I have no problem with characters not auto-leveling now. I actually see it has merits and makes the game more interesting (for me, that's why we have mods so people can alter it for their own tastes.)

 

Ciao.

Edited January 5, 2018 by fluent

[Roxanne]

Is there a way for mod NPCs to hook into the auto-leveling system and behave as vanilla NPCs do? I find the difference a bit jarring, it would be nice to mod something to bring them all in line...

Sorry to say that this proposal is NOT

about how to possibly do something, and the response from forumites has been simple discouragement rather than discussion and brainstorming.

 

This is just manifesting an old hat, same-as-it-ever-was.

The NEW idea would be to allow differences justified by the game plot.

Like this:

- At the beginning of the game the PC is fresh/inexperienced but NPCs he may meet are not

When you leave Candlekeep at level 1 and you go to meet Khalid /Jaheira at FAI, those are supposed to be your guardians recommended by Gorion. According to their background and Bio they are seasoned adventurers and have served the harpers for 20 years+, they fought in wars etc. Why the hell make them level 1 NPCs? I am not advocating a large spread here (no level16 druid) but them being at level 3 would make sense.

- The PC with his bhaal blood learns fast (maybe faster than others). Somewhere around Cloakwood mines he/she reaches the experience of those others. The PC earns the role of party leader over time. From that point on (more or less) the PC may be just *better* than anyone recruited from now on.

- When the level 10/11 PC comes to Irenicus Dungeon and recruits a mod NPC sorcerer there (yes, there is one) who is at level 5, why not just keep that guy as he is - you do not get a 5 level boost just because you join the PC's party, that is not justified.

- Such a system can even be enhanced by features that give specific NPCs or Classes extra personal xp for specific deeds they perform. Like the party member who kills a high level beast gets the xp, not the whole group - xps for opening locks/detecting traps go to the thief alone (that NPC learns more from it, not the whole group) - similar for spellcasters.

 

End of brainstorming.

*bring them all in line...* is 15 year old cold coffee.

Edited January 5, 2018 by Roxanne

[fluent]

 

The NEW idea would be to allow differences justified by the game plot.

Like this:

- At the beginning of the game the PC is fresh/inexperienced but NPCs he may meet are not

When you leave Candlekeep at level 1 and you go to meet Khalid /Jaheira at FAI, those are supposed to be your guardians recommended by Gorion. According to their background and Bio they are seasoned adventurers and have served the harpers for 20 years+, they fought in wars etc. Why the hell make them level 1 NPCs? I am not advocating a large spread here (no level16 druid) but them being at level 3 would make sense.

- The PC with his bhaal blood learns fast (maybe faster than others). Somewhere around Cloakwood mines he/she reaches the experience of those others. The PC earns the role of party leader over time. From that point on (more or less) the PC may be just *better* than anyone recruited from now on.

- When the level 10/11 PC comes to Irenicus Dungeon and recruits a mod NPC sorcerer there (yes, there is one) who is at level 5, why not just keep that guy as he is - you do not get a 5 level boost just because you join the PC's party, that is not justified.

- Such a system can even be enhanced by features that give specific NPCs or Classes extra personal xp for specific deeds they perform. Like the party member who kills a high level beast gets the xp, not the whole group - xps for opening locks/detecting traps go to the thief alone (that NPC learns more from it, not the whole group) - similar for spellcasters.

 

End of brainstorming.

 

Yes! I like your examples. I would *love* to see more of that in RPGs in general. It's a very underused idea.

 

I'd like to see the game adapt to those examples when you have a stronger character, too. Not level-scaling, but maybe checking the average party level and spawning accordingly (according to the area and lore, too, though. Maybe instead of 3 Giant Spiders you get 2 Giant Spiders and 1 Sword Spider or what have you.) So that would mean that even if you have a higher level character or two the game would stay challenging. And you can have a lower level character too according to their story and lore as well. I'm doing that kinda now with Valerie and Finch (yet Valerie's lore is that she's a Cowled Wizard, yet her stat sheet is a level 1 Sorcerer.) So yeah, would like to see a lot more of this in the future.

 

Quick brainstorming, but for a game more like Temple of Elemental Evil or Icewind Dale, maybe even a feature could be added that your character doesn't need to start at level 1, even. In ToEE, for example, the "story" is that you're a group of adventurers seeking fame and fortune. So maybe you could start at level 3 or 4 and the game could adapt to that as well. You could roll your first few levels as typical D&D does, yet it changes the game based on that according to the story and lore. In BG the character is mostly fresh and young (although you could write your biography, which is interesting but just for RP purposes) so it wouldn't be as important a feature. But for IWD, ToEE or games like that where you could roleplay a more veteran or at least not fresh and new adventuring party, it could be neat

Edited January 5, 2018 by fluent

[subtledoctor]

- At the beginning of the game the PC is fresh/inexperienced but NPCs he may meet are not

When you leave Candlekeep at level 1 and you go to meet Khalid /Jaheira at FAI, those are supposed to be ... seasoned adventurers ... them being at level 3 would make sense.

Indeed, I generally set J&K to 3rd level in my games.

 

- When the level 10/11 PC comes to Irenicus Dungeon and recruits a mod NPC sorcerer there (yes, there is one) who is at level 5, why not just keep that guy as he is - you do not get a 5 level boost just because you join the PC's party, that is not justified.

- Such a system can even be enhanced by features that give specific NPCs or Classes extra personal xp for specific deeds they perform. Like the party member who kills a high level beast gets the xp, not the whole group - xps for opening locks/detecting traps go to the thief alone (that NPC learns more from it, not the whole group) - similar for spellcasters.

Those are all fine ideas. Indeed, my own mod adds stat-based XP variability á la PS:T, so different experience levels is something I like in my games. BUT that doesn't mean they must imposed on every player! If I ask for technical advice for possibly making something that lets other players with other preferences optionally deviate from how you think the game should be, are you really going to withhold advice and information just because you don't personally see yourself using such a mod?

[Roxanne]

Those are all fine ideas. Indeed, my own mod adds stat-based XP variability á la PS:T, so different experience levels is something I like in my games. BUT that doesn't mean they must imposed on every player! If I ask for technical advice for possibly making something that lets other players with other preferences optionally deviate from how you think the game should be, are you really going to withhold advice and information just because you don't personally see yourself using such a mod?

 

Hey. hey, hey, I am not withholding information as Argent77 just posted one example here on this thread yesterday. And there have been dozens of variations in mods of this over the years. This is why I called it *cold coffee*. You need not re-invent the wheel but just copy code,

 

• Among the various methods I have seen in mods over year, I personally preferred this

LEVEL1NPCS/LEVEL1NPCS. Joinable NPCs more closely match the player character's experience -> On initial joining only

because it also subtracted xp from overpowered NPCs - and it used a list of NPCs so it allowed to add or delete those you wanted to apply the method to.Downside here was that this fumbling with the NPC was theatrically visible.

• Second best - for me - was the method that spawned a version of the NPC that came close to the PC, e.g. Kivan3 if PC was level 1-3. Kivan6 if PC was level 4-6 etc., because here you got an NPC to join without seeing any level-up process. Of course you may argue that this method does not allow the player to make choices on how to apply level up features himself.
• Third in my rating would be Argent77's example - less exact and involving the player. Like above you may see it as a plus that the player is involved and makes choices while I do generally not like these breakings of the fourth wall by all kind of mods.

Edited January 5, 2018 by Roxanne