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Ascension Demogorgon


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#1 cowking

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Posted 14 November 2011 - 06:24 PM

From the SCSII readme:

"Ascension is fully compatible with SCS II. By default, Ascension enemies use their own scripts instead of SCS II scripts, although a number of components change this. (Note in particular that the Ascension "tougher Demogorgon" component is overridden by the "Improved Fiends" component of SCS II.)"

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I will most certainly install the SCSII Improved Fiends component, does this mean that...

A.) I can install Ascension Tougher Demogorgon, and the SCSII Improved Fiends simply enhances the Ascension Demogorgon AI, meaning I should install both for maximum challenge?

B.) SCSII Improved Fiends completely overrides the Ascension Tougher Demogorgon component, in which case, I would be better off not installing it (Ascension version) in the first place? <- (since if I have to pick one or the other, I would pick the SCSII version)

I don't want to run into anything like THIS.

Edited by cowking, 14 November 2011 - 07:59 PM.


#2 DavidW

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Posted 14 November 2011 - 08:51 PM

I'm slightly confused here.

My text (emphasis added):

the Ascension "tougher Demogorgon" component is overridden by the "Improved Fiends" component of SCS II.


Your question: does SCSII enhance Ascension, or override it?

Doesn't that answer itself?

#3 cowking

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Posted 14 November 2011 - 09:06 PM

I'm slightly confused here.

My text (emphasis added):

the Ascension "tougher Demogorgon" component is overridden by the "Improved Fiends" component of SCS II.


Your question: does SCSII enhance Ascension, or override it?

Doesn't that answer itself?


Well, I apologize, but my brain went into lockdown awhile ago when trying to find out the various bugs and their fixes for Ascension, G3 Fixpack, SCSII, and all three of them combined.

But the thing that led me to make this thread, was the following quote from SCSII readme.

"By default, Ascension enemies use their own scripts instead of SCS II scripts, although a number of components change this."

Since the readme quote I bolded leads me to believe SCSII Improved Fiends only alters Ascension Demogorgon's SCRIPTS, does installing Ascension's Tougher Demogorgon before SCSII Improved Fiends change the stats/special abilities/lackeys of Demogorgon?

Is the Demogorgon battle identical if...

Option A.) No Ascension Demogorgon installed, SCSII Improved Fiends installed

Option B.) Ascension Demogorgon installed, SCSII Improved Fiends installed

Are option A.) and B.) 100% identical?

Right now, it sounds like SCSII Improved Fiends component only overrides the Ascension Demogorgon scripts, and who knows what Ascension has done besides scripts.

Also, is the video link to-be-found in the link I posted in the OP the proper SCSII Improved Fiends version of Demogorgon (or is it broken by some other mod as the writer suspected)?

Demogorgon the Pathetic starts off with a mean pre-buff, and begins casting a powerful summoning spell. If you interrupt this cast, his scripting will be ruined, and he will just melee you for the duration of the fight (bug)
His stoneskins are immune to any dispel methods (cheese-o-bug)
He does not begin the fight with time-stop, he should - written in the script (bug)
His scripting can be.. brace yourself.. dispelled (it's so buggy that it makes the other bugs look like "working as intended")


Edited by cowking, 14 November 2011 - 09:49 PM.


#4 DavidW

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Posted 15 November 2011 - 06:30 AM

Fair enough. The Ascension version of Demogorgon is identical to the vanilla one except for (i) his script; (ii) his hit points. If you install "Improved Fiends" from SCSII, that overrides the script. If you also install "Give Fiends more Staying Power" from SCSII, that overrides the hit points (from 390 to 400, iirc).

So don't bother with Ascension unless you want Demogorgon, but only Demogorgon, to get more hit points.

As for Stworca's report, testing it is one of the (few) remaining things on my to-do list for SCSIIv20. I tentatively think it's a mod-interaction issue, since (a) it's pretty dramatic, and I do test these things; (b) no-one else has reported it. Still, I've made mistakes before, and that component is relatively old so may be clashing with some more-recent version.

#5 DavidW

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Posted 15 November 2011 - 04:44 PM

OK, so I've had a chance to check Stworca's comments now now, and it's mostly incorrect.

"Demogorgon the Pathetic starts off with a mean pre-buff, and begins casting a powerful summoning spell. If you interrupt this cast, his scripting will be ruined, and he will just melee you for the duration of the fight (bug)"

That's not correct (or at least: I can't reproduce it). I think what's going on is that , if you interrupt Demo's casting, he'll spend the next several seconds attacking you before he gets a chance to cast again. He has a very high attack rate and it can certainly look as if he's stopped doing anything else except attack. But he returns to spellcasting fairly soon.

"His stoneskins are immune to any dispel methods (cheese-o-bug)"

He uses Melissan's version of Stoneskin, which (it turns out) can be taken down by anti-spell attacks (e.g. Spellstrike) but not by Breach. But it's certainly not "immune to any dispel methods". (It's possible that some other mod was messing this up, but I think it's more likely to have been in-battle confusion).

Having said that, I don't actually like Melissan's Stoneskin, for all that it's in the vanilla game. I hadn't realised it wasn't affected by Breach but was by anti-spell; now I do, I'll probably tweak it for the next version.

"He does not begin the fight with time-stop, he should - written in the script (bug)"

It is written in the script, but it's intentionally disabled (I thought it was a bit too difficult). You can re-enable it at the console; it's documented.

"His scripting can be.. brace yourself.. dispelled (it's so buggy that it makes the other bugs look like "working as intended")"

I haven't a clue what this means. (His scripting is actually pretty simple and linear; there's not much complicated going on beyond general SCS melee code.)

#6 polytope

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Posted 25 November 2011 - 06:37 PM

Looking at the video, I believe Stworca is using "Fiends cast as normal wizards" option, which isn't recommended as many of their abilities such as Fire Storm, Symbol Stun and Blade Barrier have a long casting time and are easy to interrupt, considering most fiends lack defensive buffs.

Btw. DavidW, I've found a more reliable way to simulate innate casting than SpellNoDec + casting speed bonus, as even spells with an alleged casting time of zero can sometimes be disrupted by damage (or silence, miscast magic effect etc.).

Have the creature ForceSpell() an innate (casting time 1) which does nothing but display the casting graphic/animation, then in the same block ReallyForceSpell() the actual spells - the ReallyForceSpell() action is normally carried out under timestop or disabling effects, but will not be if the creature first has to force cast another spell in the same scripting block - although ForceSpell() does seem to be possible for unconcious creatures, STATE_SLEEPING would need to be checked for.

He uses Melissan's version of Stoneskin, which (it turns out) can be taken down by anti-spell attacks (e.g. Spellstrike) but not by Breach. But it's certainly not "immune to any dispel methods". (It's possible that some other mod was messing this up, but I think it's more likely to have been in-battle confusion).

Having said that, I don't actually like Melissan's Stoneskin, for all that it's in the vanilla game. I hadn't realised it wasn't affected by Breach but was by anti-spell; now I do, I'll probably tweak it for the next version.


Theoretically, Mel's stoneskin (once you're aware of this) is easier to remove than regular stoneskin, as it can be dispelled by Secret Word rather than Breach (expending a 4th level rather than 5th level slot), I'd support changing it to a combat protection.

Edited by polytope, 25 November 2011 - 06:55 PM.

Polytweak - Polytope's enhancements of BG2 creatures, NPCs and the proficiency system.

#7 DavidW

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Posted 26 November 2011 - 03:38 AM

Looking at the video, I believe Stworca is using "Fiends cast as normal wizards" option, which isn't recommended as many of their abilities such as Fire Storm, Symbol Stun and Blade Barrier have a long casting time and are easy to interrupt, considering most fiends lack defensive buffs.


I agree. (I still don't think anything actually breaks on that setting, but certainly Demo doesn't act his best.)

Btw. DavidW, I've found a more reliable way to simulate innate casting than SpellNoDec + casting speed bonus, as even spells with an alleged casting time of zero can sometimes be disrupted by damage (or silence, miscast magic effect etc.).

Have the creature ForceSpell() an innate (casting time 1) which does nothing but display the casting graphic/animation, then in the same block ReallyForceSpell() the actual spells - the ReallyForceSpell() action is normally carried out under timestop or disabling effects, but will not be if the creature first has to force cast another spell in the same scripting block - although ForceSpell() does seem to be possible for unconcious creatures, STATE_SLEEPING would need to be checked for.


That's very cute. (Though I'll probably delay testing it until after I've got the current version out.)

#8 InKal

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Posted 28 November 2011 - 05:50 AM

In my opinion it is a false report, I mean the movie. This Stworca dude is old timer tactics player, his gameplay is based on cheese. He uses Unholy Reaver +5 (dispel on hit, improved Carsomir in fact). Dunno what he's talking about problems removing Demo's stoneskin?? - he doesn't have any problems with that for sure; x3 ruby ray in chain chointingecy (typical tactics cheese, in fact counter-cheese against tactics "imp invis-immun.divin.-immun. abjuration" combo). his protagonist is probably anti-paladin and......................... his "party" is not even properly buffed. no chaotic commands on fighters, no fire protection, etc. etc. my eyes bleed, that was really painful to watch lol

#9 zur312

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Posted 29 June 2013 - 08:10 AM

Hi
i have similar problem with mods and demogorgon
the fight

he looks really weak i just ruby ray + breach and melee to death

my weidu log from top to bottom
~SETUP-TACTICS.TP2~ #0 #34 // Slightly Tougher Demons
~SETUP-ASCENSION.TP2~ #0 #2 // Original Tougher Demogorgon (optional, requires ToB)
~SCSII/SETUP-SCSII.TP2~ #0 #6040 // Give fiends more staying power by increasing their hit points (this component has no effect unless Improved Fiends is installed): v21
~SCSII/SETUP-SCSII.TP2~ #0 #6050 // Improved fiends -> Fiends have fast, uninterruptable innate magic: v21

what should i install and how to have the real toughest "tougher demogorgon" ?

#10 Savage

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Posted 25 December 2017 - 03:31 PM

fix demogorgon please (this must be demon prince, not a punch bag that you made)


Edited by Savage, 25 December 2017 - 03:32 PM.




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